Anti-misogyny classes - have schools lost trust in boys, what went wrong

[Renati]

Why do I feel like the default expectation from boys in schools is that they are a threat so that we need to have these classes in schools.

What went wrong?

We all know and can feel what boys need and want in life to be good brothers, fathers, husbands and people in the community and somehow...instead of reinforcing these things in schools they are going off on a tangent based on what? The manosphere? Seriously? How distracted can an entire government get.

Is the only way out of this backwards caveman style teaching is to homeschool? Boys in school are not given the space to express themselves without first being told the reason the feel the way they feel is...innately probably because they are a person who needs correcting.

This doesn't just affect men, if you provide a society where men grow up resentful of the conditions and expectations set around them, you will have men more resentful for women....and guess what...this does encourage boys to not the become the brothers, fathers and husbands they could be because this is only possible if society creates a safe space for boys to feel secure and validated for their feeling growing up.

I just see it as an unhealthy thing for him to be told to do. Just reinforcing this idea this stereotype that men are potentially dangerous when most of them are not. I don't get scared of men. Maybe it's also partly I was sick of my sister going on about men in general and how bad they are I don't like hearing it when I'm rasing a son

I 100% agree with teaching what is the correct way to behave, as opposed to - here you go...here's a course about how not to hate women! Honestly!

It's like teaching a person how to cook and giving them a book "How not to have an eating disorder". It's so backwards. Just give them the cookery book. Recipes.

There is a very real problem with misogyny amongst teenage boys in school - aimed at both female students and staff.

We now have specific training around it and it is part of our KCSiE training annually.

Some of it is really subtle, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be nipped in the bud, or that we don't praise and encourage boys to be themselves, just that we don't tolerate these kinds of attitudes and behaviours - rightly so.

TBH if you are not a woman working in the kind of environment you don't really have a clue. You'd probably be quite shocked at some of the stuff we deal with.

Of course and it is only going to get worse. These influencers know our society are labeling boy energy as a threat and these influencers provide a safe space. What do we do? Reinforce the idea with a course! Lets claim back boys by providing understanding towards boys instead of trying to alienate them all the time. It's backwards.

That fairy - this is the problem. You aren’t understanding this; no one says your ds is dangerous, but many women do feel uncomfortable when an unknown man walks behind them. What on earth is the problem with your son being one of the good men? All you have to say is ‘it’s generally thoughtful not to walk behind a lone woman’ if he asks why you just say ‘some women feel nervous or vulnerable, they may have had a bad experience or know someone who has’.

But what exactly do you want girls and women to understand? Something has gone terribly wrong - unfettered access to the internet, too many absent fathers, too many clueless parents… whatever you think has happened it has. My daughters hears shocking and disgusting things at school all the time. She can understand all she likes but how do we stop it?

And yes, of course a man should cross the street if a lone woman is walking ahead. That’s just common courtesy. I will absolutely teach my son this when he’s a teenager.

@ThatFairy my DH, brothers, almost adult son all cross the road if they are behind women at night. You are not teaching your son that all men are a threat, you are teaching him that women feel threatened and anything he can do to give reassurance is a good thing. My daughters very much feel threatened to the extent they do not walk around on their own at night, not just because they think they will get attacked but it’s unwanted male attention that they do not want. Teach your son to feel mindful of what life is/can be for women.

Should we stop teaching about racism in case it gives white people the idea there is something wrong with them? Let’s just teach about nice things, and gloss over how badly things can go wrong.

@ThatFairy have you tried listening to your sister? Does she have daughters? She is likely to have good reason for her fears and concerns, and is trying to help your boys be the good guys.

Boys do not have a space/ role models which validate their energy - so the influencers know this and are doing the job our society should be doing. Until that is fixed, boys will always first get validation from the influencer, then basically want to copy everything they do.

Also I think boys will know if to cross a road based on context. It's common sense. If it is at night / empty street. But to drill into a boy from a young age that walking behind a girl is inappropriate is just nonsense.

In my DD’s school (state secondary), the girls had several PSHE sessions where they discussed things like the importance of consent and making sure they “say no”, not making themselves vulnerable in the community and the statistics around violence against women/girls. Surely this is just the other side of this for boys 🤷🏻‍♀️

Whilst not all boys will be a perpetrator of male violence towards women/girls, neither will all women/girls be a victim of it. Education on both sides is surely helpful and I imagine a mixed sex discussion on this would be more difficult to teach sensitively to boys as the fact of the matter is that male violence against women/girls is a genuinely huge issue in society and sadly, boys need to be aware of this to actively start to reverse the trend.

Also, for years we have been teaching mixed sex groups about the danger of internet grooming, sexual exploitation and sex without consent which is all about helping people (predominantly girls as far as stats go) to not become victims. I think it’s right that we start teaching people (predominantly boys as far as stats go) to not become perpetrators.

@PrizedPickledPopcorn and @kkneat I don't know I think maybe I was just getting sick of her ranting all the time that men are these terrible creatures when I don't feel that way at all. I am listening to what you're saying

What is this energy?
We have sports and cadet type activities, orchestras and chess clubs, park run, drama, woodfolk… all sorts of ways young people can burn off energy, explore their identity and skills, whatever their personality type. If your sons are only coming across validation online, that’s on you.

Steve Biddulph wrote books about parenting boys. Have you read any?

So the reason men behave badly is because we labelled them as behaving badly? I cannot help but think you might have reversed your chicken and egg here.

Of course it is 100% right to teach right from wrong. However, we don't teach girls that if they wear certain clothing they are going to become a victim for example. Girls can express themselves in whatever they want to wear...feel feminine and feel validated for just existing as a woman without being treat like they innately need correcting. We teach consent. Great.

This course does the complete opposite for boys and I'm sorry they will resent society and women for it in the long-term.

OP, you are assuming and oversimplifying an awful lot here.

I'm not sure tbh, if classes are going to help, but no ones going to go in and go 'Boys you need to know that you are misogynistic, a danger to women, and you are terrible people because you are male!' Or anything to imply as such. I agree it could be easy for them to be perceived as such but maybe one of the things we need to teach boys and young men is to take critiques of patriarchal issues less personally (its not about them, it's about the messages they are getting) so that they can actually be receptive.

I agree with pps that women have bent over backwards to 'understand men' in good faith but we've never had the same in return from most men and from the culture we exist in. Look at the way for example, everyone read books about and by men, yet men seldom read books for or about women. The understanding is not two-way.

So can boys, as long as they don’t get handsy and mouthy with the girls.

“Validate their energy”?
Boys need strong role models I agree, but schools can only do so much, role models need to be provided at home and in the family, if possible.
Because something obviously has gone very wrong. The things my DGD hears at school from boys shock even me and I’m no shrinking violet.
I think anti misogyny classes are a good idea and it is teaching boys how to behave. The Manosphere is gaining traction and we need something to counter it.
I see nothing wrong with explaining to a young man that a woman might feel intimated if he’s walking behind her. Because it’s a fact and what’s wrong with teaching him to be mindful of how his behaviour, even unintentionally, can affect others?
Between the Pelicot case and the recently discussed “Rape Academy” which had 81 million views in March, it is clear that society has a massive problem. How many parents do you think say “my son is a sexiest little shit”? They don’t, they all “not my Nigel” until they find out, actually, it is.
It is not all men, but it is far too many.

Schools cover all sorts of personal and social issues and lots around boys being who they want and not necessarily defined by sport or income or masculine tropes. Boy energy - is there only one sort? Is your post just as reductive in how it positions boys? School allows boys to be many things and there are many types of different boys who are celebrated when once they were bullied.

The media as ever lags on what we tend to see in schools and the Tates of this world tend to be mocked these days although they did have their moment of allure. It doesn’t need media cheerleaders for misogyny to it be apparent that schools should challenge it.

Incidentally, my eldest boy worked out himself as he changed from boy to man that you take care in how you present around women in certain situations. Mine would cross that road, has a polite smile at the ready and makes it clear he is no threat as an acknowledgement
of how he knows and can see he can make women feel. He is giant and has the look of a meanie with his shaved head. He is under no illusion who women and girls would chose to walk past in a dark lane when it’s between him and a woman.

Renati - no one has said anything about ‘drilling into boys from a young age never to follow a girl’, where did you get that from. It’s just a low key one off conversation- ideally from their dad, once they are starting to get taller and are out and about at night.

You are SO wrong.
The way to demonstrate it's not all men, is by doing exactly as your sister suggests!

By that token we wouldn’t teach any RSE/PSE. Everything taught within it are isolated topics on their own, when taught as part of the curriculum it helps (hopefully) to shape people into well rounded, knowledgeable individuals, who can be functioning and productive members of society

Right, they may not use those words, but on one hand being influenced by someone online who is providing a very real validation for their feelings which society isn't providing, they are of course going to resent anything counterintuitive to that. Of course children can take critiques of patriarchal philosophy if it was just that, but this isolated course is and will be seen as a tool against influencers and children know that they are not stupid.

Perhaps we should be focusing on claiming back safe spaces for boys, and validation for boys - or if this isn't possible, perhaps it is a lost cause in the UK which is very sad.

Validating what exactly? We have tried a society where men have more money, more responsibility and more freedom for hundreds of years. Telling them that this sometimes leads to dangerous situations for women and girls is surely vitally important.

However, we don't teach girls that if they wear certain clothing they are going to become a victim for example.
Girls have been 'taught' exactly that for ever! @Renati

Some schools have changed their uniforms to trousers for both sexes FFS. What's that teaching both girls and boys

Its very, very recent that there's been any real attempt to remove the victim blaming. But we're a long way from that being universal! And as a mother of dd, I have struggled massively with this very issue. My head tells me my dd should be able to wear what she likes, but the reality of life makes me fearful because the value judgement is still real and there are too many boys and men who have zero respect for women.

Of course it is appropriate at night and I mentioned this also.