My child is in constant trouble at school but good at home. What to do.

[Mumsytutu]

Hi there.
not sure where to start so here we go.
I have a 13 year old son, who is in constant trouble at school.
His usual issues are low level disruption, chatter (a lot) and the odd general boyish behaviour. Never anything untoward for eg: bullying, spiteful or the usual things you’d hate your teenager to be involved in.
At home, although there is the odd teenage attitude outburst, on the whole he is a joy to be around, well behaved, well mannered etc. He is very funny, personable, considerate and just a decent kid (to us, his friends parents, family etc) no one can ever understand why he’s in so much trouble at school.
We have a great relationship which I’m keen to preserve of course. He confides in me and is he’s very honest (too honest sometimes!!).
He will hold his hands up when he has deserved the sanction point.
He has a great friendship group, decent boys who are likeminded etc.
The school is one of the best in the area. They are strict, which I support. I think.
At first, in year 7, we came down on him like a ton of bricks everytime he received a ‘sanction behaviour point’. Over time this has stopped as he ended up in a right mess and felt he had nowhere to turn (stopped eating, extremely emotional at home, etc etc). After discussing by with the school we felt their punishments (detention etc) should be enough. (Considering there wasn’t ever any extreme behaviour like bullying etc).
fast forward to year 9 and he has all but completely written off school. He hates it and cannot wait to leave. He’s a bright lad so this breaks my heart.
His planned GCSE choices (which he is certain he will fail) all revolve around which teachers he gets on with.
Im bombarded with emails and calls from the school about how talkative he is (and from him in the toilets during the day, phones are banned but he texts and sends voice notes secretly telling me what’s going on, I do warn him if he looses his phone it’s his own fault, but equally I’m pleased he feels he can call mum).
He has been accused of being rude to staff on odd occasions, and when we discussed this at home it was because he was being accused of doing something he didn’t do and was frustrated (I investigated, he was telling the truth on all occasions, I even had to dig out his bank statements to send to the school on one occasion when he was accused of having a fizzy drink. He doesn’t like fizzy drinks for a start!!). We do talk about how to get your point accords respectfully however, no place for rudeness in my mind. He says he was just trying to tell them it wasn’t him etc and they wouldn’t listen.
Additionally, what we are finding is once he receives a sanction point in the week, he will spiral and it just gets worse from there.
Also, this is not in every subject, he can tell us ahead of time which subjects he will receive a sanction in at the start of the day and he is usually right (based on which teachers he has).
Im now at a point where I have told the school to stop contacting me unless he is rude/ bullying or if he is quiet (as that would be concerning!!)
I totally understand how ‘low level disruption’ is not fair on the other children, and we do discuss at home etc but im at a loss of what to do and this is so draining on us as parents, let alone him. He’s now starting to try and get out of school on the ‘bad days’ . He tried to tell me he was ill and I saw straight past him and he was then honest, he’s had enough of the constant sanctions and I can totally understand.
He has a detention every week (detentions are based on how many sanction points a child receives rather a specific events). As the school is 15 miles away, one of us then has to pick him up which is a nightmare (we both work full time).
We have spoken to him about this until we are blue in the face. I’ve told him just to be mute in certain subjects etc to get by.
i should also point out that he gets an incredible amount of positive points for his contributions to lessons and for his confidence etc. it’s not all bad!
i have emailed the school so I’m waiting to hear back but at the moment I’m thinking he would be best for everyone if he didn’t go to school on the ‘bad days’ which is ridiculous!! He’s always had excellent attendance so the fact in even thinking like this is shocking.
does anyone have any advice. I’m exhausted and so is he.
thanks so much.

Have you spoken to the SENCO? Constant behaviour issues should have been flagged with them a long time ago. There could be undiagnosed SEN at play.

There is something going on with him and the school should be escalating this to the SENCO rather than doling out endless detentions which clearly aren’t working.

There is a pretty fine line between contributing well in class, and being the loud mouthed kid who thinks they know it all. And that line shifts between people and circumstances.

Do you think what is seen as funny and personable in a social group is being seen as big headed and back chat by some of the stricter teachers?

Be careful with the GCSE choices based on teacher. Unless there is only one person teaching that subject you may well not get your current teacher for GCSE.

Completely agree with this.

No, this has never been on the radar or discussed at any point during his education. He loved primary school, go on so well and was never in any trouble so this has all started since secondary.
I have obviously googled, and I’d say he does have some ADHD traits in my opinion, but nothing that stands out as a strong tick list of issues that have made me take this further.
He's just a happy, smiley, talkative lad who gets on well with everyone. He has no problems socially. I think this is why I’m struggling to understand what’s going on at school.
don't get me wrong, he has his moments at home and he certainly has a moan about completing his chores, but he’s generally a decent kid with a sensible head on his shoulders.
I will ask his mentor regarding SENCO however, thank you.

I would second researching needs. Is he covering up something - is reading a huge effort due to visual stress? Can he process efficiently? Is he just very impulsive and it comes out before he thinks? Some kids are absolutely brilliant on a one to one but a complete pain in a group due to anxiety - they don’t see it as anxiety but it is that that drives them to behave like the class clown. Is he totally over sensitive to sound or touch - just the peoplyness of school can jangle every nerve. Has he turned himself into the class clown and now he has to live up to that. I’d be asking the scholl what they are doing to promote good behaviour. Unfortunately, when you get a kid like this it is really easy to assume every noise and wrongdoing is the, and not the super smart quiet demon at the back who never gets caught.

You need to stop making excuses for him tbh. Investigating by checking his bank statement is ridiculous. He could have got that fizzy drink from anywhere. He knows where he will get behaviour points because he is planning to be disruptive before he goes in. You are condoning his behaviour and basically sticking your fingers in your ears by telling school you don't want to know and being OK with him calling you from the toilets ffs.
You fix it by supporting the school, telling him to stop messing around and taking his phone for poor behaviour. Don't take his calls during the day or if you do tell school he is using his phone so it is confiscated.

He should be screened for ADHD, this is very much how it can present. If he's bright then it might not be affecting his grades as such but he'll probably be fidgety which comes across as distracting - this might be why he's fine with certain teachers because they have either placed him in a position in the class where they can screen it out or they recognise it as his method of increasing his focus so he can learn. Whereas others are seeing it as a sign he's not listening and then they're annoyed with him already which makes them much more likely to pick up on the first thing he does even slightly wrong which they might ignore from a pupil they feel more positive about.

By the way the outcome of all this if you don't change things are poor gcse results.

I have a lad in my tutor group who is exactly like your son. Chatty, personable at home. In trouble at school for persistent, low level disruption. Lots of positive points. Bright but demoralised. Started school refusing on bad days.

Two things need to happen as a priority:

SENCO involvement.

Don't dismiss low-level behaviour because it's not bullying. It's extremely disruptive and unfair on the rest of the class.

Totally agree. This was my very first concern when this kicked off in the 2nd week of yr 7. I’ve had long chats with him about this.
I’m not there ultimately, so I can’t confirm or deny if this IS how he’s coming across, but I do know that’s not his nature.
he's been described as a ‘ray of chatty sunshine’ by his Geography teacher (his favourite teacher).
re GCSE choices based on teachers, again, I have warned him but it seems the only path he can see to ‘get through it’.
eurgh. 😔.

Why is he so talkative in class when he knows he will get sanctioned and he sanctions bother him What does he say?

The thing is most children really are able to behave appropriately most of the time unless there is something else going on.

Would a school move and a clean slate help? He obviously knows where things are going wrong but can't get out of the cycle. Alongside assessment for ADHD or similar.

I agree that this needs investigation before the focus of GCSE.

I will also emphasise that choosing subjects on the basis of whether you like the teacher or not, is a poor strategy. My daughter chose one option based on the teacher. Of course, she didn’t have that teacher and failed that subject.

He should opt for subjects he engages with.

Thanks for this.
please don’t think I’m dismissing the low level disruption, I honestly do get it, I just don’t know how to fix it and have been trying for 2.5 years. I have tried to support the school, we have laid down the law at home to no avail.
We ended up at the doctors at the end of last year as he had stopped eating. (school aware).
We go round in circles.
yet all the time, I have a son who’s simply a good kid at home.
Ive asked the school to help numerous times and we just round in circles with detention after detention,
even he has asked to be removed from certain lessons and work alone.

i will speak with them regarding SENCO and continue to drill into him how low level disruption is not ok.

Appreciate your comment, thank you.

He prefers having fun to learning. Not unusual in teenage boys. Focus on his future - possible career choices, and associated salaries, and what he needs to get there - decent GCSE grades for a start.
If he responds to money then make his allowance/pocket money dependent on good behaviour in school - deduct X amount for every sanction point he gets.
And stop responding to his texts during the day, he is using you to justify his 'position' against the teachers. School is school, he must obey the rules, he knows what they are.
Bottom line is that it is exceptionally annoying for teachers to have to deal with class clowns even when they are actually really nice decent kids.

Would it help if he sat alone in class, with nobody next to him to potentially talk to, right at the front of class?

I’ve taught (many) kids like this.

usually they just can’t shut up.

the varying attitude of the teachers will depend on how much the subject and the teacher is able to tolerate it.

so fir example - PE won’t care if he’s constantly talking to himself while doing football drills/playing basketball/swimming.

but if he’s doing a silent timed test he’ll be a nightmare as he literally cannot be quiet for the time. I’ve taught kids who say in advance - I can’t be quiet for an hour I’m going to take it to Sen hub and do it there (usually adhd).

once he’s pissed off the teacher (usually by a “smart” comeback to something the teacher has said that would be better kept in his head) he’s lost the relationship.

i have a child with autism and adhd so I used to cut a lot of slack and say that’s what you think in your head not what you say out loud.

seriously consider adhd. You also need to do a lot of work with him in keeping his thoughts in his head NOT automatically coming out of his mouth.

So, you know 'phones are banned' but you're 'secretly pleased' he's using his, from the toilets to contact you?
I think you need to remove your head from the sand and start listening to the school rather than him.
You are being played.

Thank you.
he does have confidence issues yes, He recently left his football team as he cannot cope with the pressure.
He can get very down on himself very quickly. Gives up before he’s tried etc etc.
Im like his personal cheerleader at times trying to pick him up 🤦🏽‍♀️.
I wasn’t sure if this is because of what’s going on at school, or contributing to what’s going on at school.
god we are in a pickle.
comments taken onboard. Thanks for taking the time to comment.

Plenty of teachers won’t see “chatty” as being a trait they like in class. He’s obviously aware of which teachers he will wind up and detentions make no difference. So he just continues and disrespects the teachers. You think it’s funny and lovely he’s chatty but you aren’t teaching a class of 30. You rather indulge him in this. You take phone calls knowing this isn’t allowed.

It could be Sen, it could be a heightened sense of what buttons to push. Are his lovely friends in trouble too? Or just him being the class clown? Many dc won’t want to be friends with him.

Id see the senco and try that route. Personally I think he’s being annoying to teachers he doesn’t like and is calculating. He’s got a label and is living up to it. If he’s so good at talking to you, can you not instil in him that teachers have different personalities and some are sick of him? Not surprisingly. If he carries on, he’ll just have to take the punishments - hopefully no exclusion eventually. Start being tougher.

The reason he is well behaved at home is presumably he doesnt need the skills he is struggling with at school, at home? Im guessing chatting is something you all enjoy at home and he isnt needed to be quiet and listen for a lesson, unless its something he is focused on and enjoying.

Also focusing discussions on the low level disruption not being ok, isnt going to help. At this stage he knows that. It sounfs he anxious and a bit ashamed by it already? He also isnt motivated by the sanctions.

So he needs support on the skills he needs to be quiet and knowing when is appropriate to chat. He might be needing a confidence boost that he can do it as at the moment he is getting a lot of reinforcement thst he cant. Maybe outside of school? Does he keep quiet at the cinema? Would he be appropriate at s church service, in a museum talk on his favourite topic. You can point out times he can succeed. Then start seeing if there are things that he can do in school to replicate the success.

I would talk to the senco too as they might have strategies I cant think of.

I came here to try and get some objective views on the situation, so thank you.

please note, I’ve been trying to deal with this for 2.5 years. I’m not secretly pleased he’s calling me. I’m pleased he feels like he can. If you can’t call your mum when you need her, then I think that would be a huge failure on my part. I don’t agree. If I don’t answer he will go to student reception and asked them to call me where they allow students to use their phone.
he did this yesterday (student reception), I told him to pull himself together and go back to class. He received a sanction for being late to the lesson.

I've tried to solely take the schools side, but when you hear other sides to each story individually (not from my son) I have to give him the benefit of the doubt where I feel he has a fair point or where something is unfair.

like I said, he will hold his hands up when he has done wrong, but will get defensive when he feels something was unfair or unjust. As would I as an adult.

He’s not playing me.

If he was referred to me (SEN teacher in a secondary mainstream) the first things I’d want to rule out were issues relating to processing or language (such as DLD). I’d screen him for comprehension, processing speed, working memory and vocabulary to see if anything flagged up. If it didn’t, I’d then consider ADHD.
ADHD needs to be apparent in two settings to be diagnosed and the fact you don’t immediately see it at home makes me wonder if it’s either an underlying cognition or speech and language need - if his brain can’t take in information quickly, or doesn’t fully understand what it’s hearing, it makes sense that he’d become bored/distracted/fed up/demotivated.

Is it possibly that he's pissing about with his mates, making silly jokes with them etc while the teacher is giving instructions. This is disruptive but hard for him to break out of because his mate expects a response to his comments. Also, mates are more interesting than double maths so the cycle continues. Talk to him about seating plans and distractions and ask him to be really honest.

I would move him to a different school and give him a fresh start. Preferably one much closer to home.