My child is in constant trouble at school but good at home. What to do.

[Mumsytutu]

Hi there.
not sure where to start so here we go.
I have a 13 year old son, who is in constant trouble at school.
His usual issues are low level disruption, chatter (a lot) and the odd general boyish behaviour. Never anything untoward for eg: bullying, spiteful or the usual things you’d hate your teenager to be involved in.
At home, although there is the odd teenage attitude outburst, on the whole he is a joy to be around, well behaved, well mannered etc. He is very funny, personable, considerate and just a decent kid (to us, his friends parents, family etc) no one can ever understand why he’s in so much trouble at school.
We have a great relationship which I’m keen to preserve of course. He confides in me and is he’s very honest (too honest sometimes!!).
He will hold his hands up when he has deserved the sanction point.
He has a great friendship group, decent boys who are likeminded etc.
The school is one of the best in the area. They are strict, which I support. I think.
At first, in year 7, we came down on him like a ton of bricks everytime he received a ‘sanction behaviour point’. Over time this has stopped as he ended up in a right mess and felt he had nowhere to turn (stopped eating, extremely emotional at home, etc etc). After discussing by with the school we felt their punishments (detention etc) should be enough. (Considering there wasn’t ever any extreme behaviour like bullying etc).
fast forward to year 9 and he has all but completely written off school. He hates it and cannot wait to leave. He’s a bright lad so this breaks my heart.
His planned GCSE choices (which he is certain he will fail) all revolve around which teachers he gets on with.
Im bombarded with emails and calls from the school about how talkative he is (and from him in the toilets during the day, phones are banned but he texts and sends voice notes secretly telling me what’s going on, I do warn him if he looses his phone it’s his own fault, but equally I’m pleased he feels he can call mum).
He has been accused of being rude to staff on odd occasions, and when we discussed this at home it was because he was being accused of doing something he didn’t do and was frustrated (I investigated, he was telling the truth on all occasions, I even had to dig out his bank statements to send to the school on one occasion when he was accused of having a fizzy drink. He doesn’t like fizzy drinks for a start!!). We do talk about how to get your point accords respectfully however, no place for rudeness in my mind. He says he was just trying to tell them it wasn’t him etc and they wouldn’t listen.
Additionally, what we are finding is once he receives a sanction point in the week, he will spiral and it just gets worse from there.
Also, this is not in every subject, he can tell us ahead of time which subjects he will receive a sanction in at the start of the day and he is usually right (based on which teachers he has).
Im now at a point where I have told the school to stop contacting me unless he is rude/ bullying or if he is quiet (as that would be concerning!!)
I totally understand how ‘low level disruption’ is not fair on the other children, and we do discuss at home etc but im at a loss of what to do and this is so draining on us as parents, let alone him. He’s now starting to try and get out of school on the ‘bad days’ . He tried to tell me he was ill and I saw straight past him and he was then honest, he’s had enough of the constant sanctions and I can totally understand.
He has a detention every week (detentions are based on how many sanction points a child receives rather a specific events). As the school is 15 miles away, one of us then has to pick him up which is a nightmare (we both work full time).
We have spoken to him about this until we are blue in the face. I’ve told him just to be mute in certain subjects etc to get by.
i should also point out that he gets an incredible amount of positive points for his contributions to lessons and for his confidence etc. it’s not all bad!
i have emailed the school so I’m waiting to hear back but at the moment I’m thinking he would be best for everyone if he didn’t go to school on the ‘bad days’ which is ridiculous!! He’s always had excellent attendance so the fact in even thinking like this is shocking.
does anyone have any advice. I’m exhausted and so is he.
thanks so much.

I’m so sad to read this. I’m so sorry this is what you went through.
Thanks, more notes here to discuss.
thank you so much

I see someone's already beaten me to it with the suggestion of RSD which is very common with ADHD. The strong sense of justice goes in there too. I'm going to suggest the reason that you don't see "problem" ADHD behaviours at home (but do see the distractibility, no sense of time, sensitivity to criticism etc) is because his needs are being met at home. He's struggling at school because his needs are not being met there.

Someone said to me when my AuDHD DC was younger that if my child was really well behaved at school but acting out at home, subject to constant sanctions at home, and repeatedly saying at school they didn't want to come home, it would be treated as a safeguarding issue. People would be asking what the hell was happening at home. Whereas when the reverse happens it's meant to be the child's fault. And that really struck a chord.

He might actually find GCSE years a bit better as classes become more about the academic course and less about crowd-herding.

Wow. thats certainly another way to look at this.
sounds like you’ve been through the mill also.
thanks for your advice.

The other thing that you could add to your googling list is in relation to the eating - it sounds like that's not a current concern, but ARFID goes along with ND issues and can go alongside anxiety. Just to flag that in case it recurs - if he's always been a fussy eater with a limited menu, and has restricted / avoided food to the point of medical intervention, then it's one to be conscious of because treating it as anorexia can be unhelpful.

OP, follow all this great advice on talking to Senco, and tell them he is on the point of school refusal. Try to negotiate that he can go to the library or another study space during French lessons and either work on French on a laptop with headphones or work on another subject for that time. If he knows he won’t be dealing with his worst teacher it may help him stay in school.

Poor lad, this must be demoralising. Have you discussed whether he wants to behave in these lessons, but can't? Or whether he actually doesn't care. Given the level of anxiety he's experiencing (not eating) I'd say it sounds like he can't control it, which is a senco issue for sure. I also wonder how he would feel about a different school? The problem with amazing state schools (on paper) is they do need excessively tight discipline, and there's a bit of a factory vibe (not all good schools but generally speaking). Is there a chance that they're overly focussed on discipline and that approach just doesn't suit him at all? My ds is very very bright, but he hates being neat and tidy, he hates irrelevant or pointless rules and he will challenge teachers (politely) if he disagrees with something- he wouldn't do well at our local outstanding school, they are very strict, very clear that uniform has to be pristine and that you must fit their vision of well behaved. A more nurturing and gentle environment is a better fit, even though the results on paper look worse. I suspect if you continue like this, his anxiety and dislike of school will build to school refusal.
Sit down with the senco, discuss the behaviour, his anxiety, your concerns, get them to look at adhd but also consider and discuss with him what "good" for him actually looks like - it can't be avoiding school so either there's support for him to hit the requirements at this school, or it's a different option/approach, or he sucks up being consistently in trouble (which sounds like a non option given his dislike of it and the impact on you all)

I'd really consider a new school.

I think this school is just not right for him and they are too strict for him.

When I was training to teach, one of my lecturers said there are two types of consistently disruptive students - those who can "help" it and can avoid misbehaviour if they really try, and those who genuinely can't do it for whatever underlying reason.

I would offer him say £50 or something he really wants if he can attend school for a week and avoid getting a detention. Maybe you've already done this, and I do accept it is a lot of money! But if you haven't it is arguably a good test for you to know whether there is something underlying that means he can't actually manage it.

I do think anxiety in boys especially can come out like this - I have had students before who sort of have to say every thought they have about the work out loud, and check in multiple times about the work - they just sort of blurt it out without thinking. If they are also quite loud it can be disruptive and means other, quieter students don't get support. But they'll often feel like they can't start a task until they have checked in with me - it's a fine balance.

Students can also be lovely and personable and disruptive. It may also be worse in certain classes because he may also feel pressure to show off to his friends etc.

Given he is quitting hobbies etc, I would talk to him about how he is feeling and perhaps take him to the GP to investigate his mental health.

Ultimately though he does need to try and resolve this before GCSE - what if he gets a teacher he doesn't like for maths/English/science?

To be honest this sounds like too much and if he is anxious all these petty rules won't help.

I would seriously investigate other options - even if they are seen as having a less good reputation.

The school nearest me who has the best GCSE results and progress also has the highest exclusion rate in the county.

A different school where there's less pressure over tiny things would likely be a better fit. I guess ( due to commutes?) you are rural so this can be really tricky but I would try any way I could to make it work. Could he be dropped at a train station and get a train to school?

I second, or third, seeking a SENCO consult. He sounds like me - and both of my kids. Talkative and charming is a great reframing of ADHD - talking over others, butting in, lack of impulse control (can’t manage to be quiet or wait turns) are all classic features of ADHD. It feels benign, but it is disruptive in a classroom (or work) setting and leads to irritation in those around him or, worse, real resentment which will ultimately undermine his self esteem.

I would have him assessed because if ADHD is an issue, his school will work with him rather than issue sanctions all day and he can have mentor support, access to medication if you/he want to explore that, and he can develop strategies and tools to manage -in particular - the compulsive/impulsive talking that is clearly perceived as a negative behavioural issue at school.

Also re homeschooling- you can get tutors to actually teach him, you don’t have to quit your job. If you considered a private school it can be a temporary option if

I came on to say exactly this, once a kid has started this it’s almost impossible to stop. Most parents would be horrified by the way their ‘perfectly behaved at home’ child behaves in school. It doesn’t make him a bad kid at all, and teachers won’t see him as such. But low level disruption has to be tackled (I know you haven’t suggested it doesn’t) and so he’s in conflict with what he is supposed to do and what his peers expect of him. This would explain the stress.
It may improve as he matures or it may continue and affect his GCSEs. The bottom line is he just needs to get his head down and get on, he’ll have your support constantly but you can’t do anything to change the situation because only he can do that.

I agree with previous advice about seating arrangements, perhaps moving class away from friends, but at the end of the day if he can’t change then I’d look at moving schools so he can have a fresh start, socially.

Good behaviour at home rarely correlates with the behaviour seen at school because the expectations are so different. But it does show that you’re raising a respectful and decent young man who knows what he should do but struggles to do it. Please stick with the teachers and their sanctions, it’s the only way he’ll accept he needs to change. Low level disruption is the worst in a classroom, it makes it so hard to teach the class and ruins relationships between students and teachers. It then gets written off as a ‘personality class’ etc which then reinforces to the child that their behaviour is acceptable. No one wins in that situation. Don’t choose GCSE subjects based on the teacher, they leave/change focus/approach classes and expectations differently according to the situation.

Sounds so much like my friends son - he has been in trouble since day 1 for being chatty / answering back etc. The bad news is just a few months into year 7 he’s being labelled as the naughty kid as he’s already had loads of detentions and been in isolation. My son is honestly just as chatty as him - both have ADHD and in primary my son was always balancing on the line between chatty / cheeky. My son has managed to keep his head down and just has a couple of warnings for chatting. He does however do A LOT of sport. When he doesn’t do sport his behaviour deteriorates. At school he eats lunch quickly and then is out playing football (getting all that energy out). He walks to and from school every day. He has sports (swimming, football and running ) every night after school. It’s a shame your boy has stopped football as it does sound like ADHD and in my experience with boys sport really does help. Maybe find another sport - or the gym (something not competitive if he doesn’t want that - although being part of a team is great).

Definitely needs to be assessed by school. Really surprised they haven't already. In my son’s school there is another boy in his class if it’s all getting a bit much he can just go to learning hub to calm down - so isn’t disrupting the class but also not getting in trouble / getting detentions. Good luck. It’s great he’s still talking to you about everything - keep that up x

So. We have tried this. (I’m quite ashamed to say, his grandparents sponsored him £20 per week to not receive a sanction). We didn’t really approve but equally they were trying to help and of course, my son was really keen on the idea. So away we went.

please don’t judge…..

It didn’t exactly go to plan. I’d say there was a small improvement (but we’re no longer doing that so really not that much of a difference). But it made him feel like a failure. He was really angry with himself and any teacher who gave him a sanction (not to their face, at home) Extremely emotional. went on a huge defensive mission to justify every sanction, denied all responsibility, always someone else’s fault, excuses etc etc etc. He would eventually say what had happened and admit fault, but he was very impulsive in trying to defend himself on everything.
we stopped it about 3 weeks in.

Not our finest hour.

Also completely counterproductive as I want him to take responsibility and improve things not deny his wrong doings. I also need him to be straight and honest with me so I can support him without question and denying responsibility where it’s due just isn't the way. I therefore found it really tricky to fathom what was genuine and what wasn’t. Which didn’t help him when it was genuine. Arghhhhh! He’s always been very straight about it until that point so yes. We stopped. And went back to where we are now. Which isn’t great school wise, but I prefer the ‘hands up it was me, I deserved that as I was chatting’ boy than the ‘shit I’ve lost £20, what can I say to try and get this back’.

He was rewarded for the positive points in the end. They went through the roof so much so it had to stop, but he did buy everyone some lovely Xmas gifts with his money (this was last Xmas).

in so embarrassed about this.

With regards to your other points, totally hear you and have the same concerns re GCSE choices. He’s completely written off his chances and is convinced he will fail. So my cheerleader routine continues. He does have some serious confidence issues behind closed doors (again, a huge surprise to everyone as he’s always so talkative).

However, I have so much constructive advice on here, I really do feel armed with so many options and strategies to help us all. So thank you x

Speak with the SENDCO, but be prepared that you might not get any answers. It could be processing time, but as this is only evident in some classes that does suggest there is more choice here with behaviour. Some teachers may prefer 'think pair shares' and plan speaking time into lessons which he prefers, some teachers will assess in different ways and want silence, which it sounds like he will struggle with.
Even if he does get diagnosed, SEND students are still not disrupting lessons because they have additional needs. Strategies are put into place to help them manage these needs. I suggest you look at ADHD strategies to help him, as chatting and being disruptive is not fair on the rest of his class and takes away from their learning time

Re-timetable the entire school for one student? Clearly, you are not involved with this process 🤣

My own son was a PITA in secondary too but no problem at all outside school in his various sporting clubs and his County chess team or at home. School phoned so often they were on my friends and family list on the landline phone bill. He had detentions every single day it made no odds.
He easily passed all his GCSEs and went on to sixth form where he behaved marginally better largely because there were fewer subjects he hated and he didn't have to be in full time but he didn't do much work. He was given unconditional offers for uni but turned them down as he was bored stiff of studying and left to work at 18. His employer funded his degree and Masters that he did on day release alongside a full time role, a part time role for experience and tutoring Maths to his colleagues' teens.
He's now a managing partner in a very successful global business and has fond memories of school for his friends, a few teachers and the chaos he caused. He advises other teens who have similar struggles "Do enough to get you to the next stage in your life and pursue your passions around that". The biggest satisfaction for him is knowing he earns 3 times the salary, 20 years younger than the teachers who called him lazy.

He sounds lovely. My boy gets sanction points every now and then (not loads to be fair but his school is pretty easy going for a grammar). I just let it go. I think you probably caused this anxiety by giving him such a hard time about them to start with. Now you need to stop feeding him the message that he's wrong all the time and focus on getting him to stay engaged. Loads of brilliant people are not naturally good at conforming. Teach him strategies for coping with the unfair
and reassure him that out of school life is pretty different but he's got to earn his respect in the workplace. If he's clever try an apprenticeship instead of more schooling.

We’ve been through this (both very experienced teachers at Senior Leadership level). I wish we had paid for a private assessment when it first occurred to me that it was ADHD, as we did this in Year 11 when we were at the end of our tethers and he scored almost 100% in all areas, I really felt we’d let him down. School thought he was doing it all on purpose, but since then I’ve done a huge deep dive into RSD, and this sounds like your son too. With an ADHD diagnosis, it’s not an excuse, but it is a reason, and therefore he does not need to feel like a failure, but knows there’s a reason and can take steps to navigate around the issues. Our son ended up being so unhappy at school for almost all of his time at secondary, yet really happy outside of school. I regret not listening to my instincts, and chasing the school when I first suggested ADHD in Year 7 & 8.
There are some fantastic resources around to help you as parents, and the good news is that if it is this, he will feel supported by you and grateful that you have been able to help.

As a teacher, I can attest to the fact that low level disruption is the worst. He’s probably showing off to his friends.
really bad behaviour usually stems from a need or vulnerability. Low level attitude and back chat stems from attitude and lack of consideration (most of the time) you need to step it up a bit.
it’s also his age. Y7-8 are known as the wasted years because they learn really nothing new and their attitude and behaviour in general is awful. But teachers can’t just ignore it. Support them which means you’re supporting him.

TBH this is exactly how I would expect that kind of thing to go, and it's why I wouldn't do it. I totally get why you did, so this is not judgement. Just a good illustration of why it can sometimes be counterproductive to seek "proof" that they "really can't help it" - the fact that other kids are not doing it to this level is a big enough sign, IMO. Statistically what are the chances that this one kid who isn't sticking to it is actually THAT bad that they would deliberately disrupt everything - for what gain? vs the chances that they are actually struggling with something e.g. ADHD which is relatively common - about 5% of the population, and if there is family history (of either ADHD or ASD, apparently) you can up that to about 20-30% chance, any immediate family members diagnosed more like 50%.

I just want to give you a different perspective... I was the near perfect teenager at home; respectful, polite, helpful, rarely moaned, stuck to most of the rules etc, but at school I could be like your son.
I was incredibly academic (left school with 8A*s, 2As and a B in GCSE), but in certain lessons I could be a complete dick. And like your son, in other lessons I could be wonderful. It totally depended on the teacher and if they had done something that I thought was unjust once, I'd basically just give up in that lesson and give them a hard time. Sometimes it was just because I was bored because the work was really easy. Same sort of things as your son: low level disruption, bit of back chat. Nothing awful and I have no idea why I did it really and feel quite remorseful for it now as an adult, as I'm sure the teachers were lovely people who just deserved to do their job without putting up with me! The more negative they were with me though, the less I tried and the more I messed around, which obviously became a bit of a vicious circle.
What would have probably helped break that would have been the opportunity to skip those lessons and go to the SEN hub things they have. My kids are autistic and I definitely have traits of both autism and ADHD, but back in those days if you were academic and reasonably well behaved you just got on with it.
Sounds like you're doing a great job of supporting your son. School need to try something different - perhaps instead of jumping straight to sanctions they could offer him time out to have a walk around and burn off some energy. It sounds like he needs to know that there are people at school that are on his side, which is proven by the fact that he gets on well in certain lessons with certain teachers. In my experience with SEN kids, some teachers just understand and some never will.

He sounds a bit like my son, who is on the ADHD pathway (he's ten).
For ADHD kids, having a good relationship with the adults in their life is crucial. If they think someone doesn't like them, they will either give up or mess around or be deliberately combative.
My son got like this with his first piano teacher - he'd bang his hands on the keys instead of listening to constructive criticism, refuse to come downstairs etc. He could tell how much this behaviour stressed the teacher out and felt rejected, so his behaviour got worse.
We moved teachers and I spelled out all his issues very clearly so she knew what to expect. He still messes around in piano lessons but it's so much better than it was and he's sitting his grade one next month.
On the other hand, his year five teacher spent parents evenings telling me having him in her class was one of the things that got her out of bed in the mornings, she loved him so much.
I also wonder if it's worth looking at less strict schools. A fresh start where he doesn't feel rejected might be just what he needs.