My child is in constant trouble at school but good at home. What to do.

[Mumsytutu]

Hi there.
not sure where to start so here we go.
I have a 13 year old son, who is in constant trouble at school.
His usual issues are low level disruption, chatter (a lot) and the odd general boyish behaviour. Never anything untoward for eg: bullying, spiteful or the usual things you’d hate your teenager to be involved in.
At home, although there is the odd teenage attitude outburst, on the whole he is a joy to be around, well behaved, well mannered etc. He is very funny, personable, considerate and just a decent kid (to us, his friends parents, family etc) no one can ever understand why he’s in so much trouble at school.
We have a great relationship which I’m keen to preserve of course. He confides in me and is he’s very honest (too honest sometimes!!).
He will hold his hands up when he has deserved the sanction point.
He has a great friendship group, decent boys who are likeminded etc.
The school is one of the best in the area. They are strict, which I support. I think.
At first, in year 7, we came down on him like a ton of bricks everytime he received a ‘sanction behaviour point’. Over time this has stopped as he ended up in a right mess and felt he had nowhere to turn (stopped eating, extremely emotional at home, etc etc). After discussing by with the school we felt their punishments (detention etc) should be enough. (Considering there wasn’t ever any extreme behaviour like bullying etc).
fast forward to year 9 and he has all but completely written off school. He hates it and cannot wait to leave. He’s a bright lad so this breaks my heart.
His planned GCSE choices (which he is certain he will fail) all revolve around which teachers he gets on with.
Im bombarded with emails and calls from the school about how talkative he is (and from him in the toilets during the day, phones are banned but he texts and sends voice notes secretly telling me what’s going on, I do warn him if he looses his phone it’s his own fault, but equally I’m pleased he feels he can call mum).
He has been accused of being rude to staff on odd occasions, and when we discussed this at home it was because he was being accused of doing something he didn’t do and was frustrated (I investigated, he was telling the truth on all occasions, I even had to dig out his bank statements to send to the school on one occasion when he was accused of having a fizzy drink. He doesn’t like fizzy drinks for a start!!). We do talk about how to get your point accords respectfully however, no place for rudeness in my mind. He says he was just trying to tell them it wasn’t him etc and they wouldn’t listen.
Additionally, what we are finding is once he receives a sanction point in the week, he will spiral and it just gets worse from there.
Also, this is not in every subject, he can tell us ahead of time which subjects he will receive a sanction in at the start of the day and he is usually right (based on which teachers he has).
Im now at a point where I have told the school to stop contacting me unless he is rude/ bullying or if he is quiet (as that would be concerning!!)
I totally understand how ‘low level disruption’ is not fair on the other children, and we do discuss at home etc but im at a loss of what to do and this is so draining on us as parents, let alone him. He’s now starting to try and get out of school on the ‘bad days’ . He tried to tell me he was ill and I saw straight past him and he was then honest, he’s had enough of the constant sanctions and I can totally understand.
He has a detention every week (detentions are based on how many sanction points a child receives rather a specific events). As the school is 15 miles away, one of us then has to pick him up which is a nightmare (we both work full time).
We have spoken to him about this until we are blue in the face. I’ve told him just to be mute in certain subjects etc to get by.
i should also point out that he gets an incredible amount of positive points for his contributions to lessons and for his confidence etc. it’s not all bad!
i have emailed the school so I’m waiting to hear back but at the moment I’m thinking he would be best for everyone if he didn’t go to school on the ‘bad days’ which is ridiculous!! He’s always had excellent attendance so the fact in even thinking like this is shocking.
does anyone have any advice. I’m exhausted and so is he.
thanks so much.

Hi There,
no, he has a very annoying little sister (as he would say).
they are actually super sweet together. Will argue over who’s turn it is to have a shower first, competitive etc, but are fiercely protective over one another. They work well together and he does a lot with her (dance routines, games etc). He’s really good with her (she’s SO bossy!!) There is a 4 year age gap. X

Hi There,
no, he has a very annoying little sister (as he would say).
they are actually super sweet together. Will argue over who’s turn it is to have a shower first, competitive etc, but are fiercely protective over one another. They work well together and he does a lot with her (dance routines, games etc). He’s really good with her (she’s SO bossy!!) There is a 4 year age gap. X

Sorry, have just seen that he has a sister so scrap that. Also that he has had issues with eating so meds might not be a great idea as they can suppress appetite. But apart from that, do definitely look into the diagnosis as it should help the school be more understanding of his needs.

Also. Sorry to hear of your troubles also. It’s so hard.
thanks for commenting.

@VikaOlson the op hasn’t said the school is draconian though and clearly the teachers have varying tolerances to disruption. It’s fairly easy for dc to not be late for a lesson because he phoned his mum. Surely he knew what the teacher would think and what the consequence would be. Who on earth wants to be a teacher with so many dc being like this? Why are they like this? No one used to phone home years ago? We didn’t even have a phone. How come there’s any need now?

But he doesn’t "get on well with everyone", does he? It sounds as if he has a cheeky, confident persona that appeals to some and not to others (the teachers he dislikes). If he knows in advance that he will be in trouble in some lessons, could he really not just keep his head down and keep quiet in those lessons? Either he doesn’t see it as important enough and chooses not to, or he has a medical problem. Your comment about being contacted if he is quiet, which you presumably thought was sort of amusing, shows that you don’t even expect him to shut up and let others get on with their learning. Are you sure he isn’t just living down to your expectations?

And if phones are banned in school, why are you encouraging him to take his and text Mummy from the toilets, ffs? You actually admit that you like him doing it!

It would be wonderful if you could actually sit in on some of his lessons, to see what’s going on, but I don’t suppose the school would allow it. You could try showing him the different lives of youngsters who did well in GCSEs and those who didn’t.

If all else, eg meeting the SENCO, fails, you might need to move him to a different school - but he might well encounter the same difficulties there. Continual low-level disruption may not be as bad as bullying but it is incredibly irritating for teachers and impacts the learning of everyone else. You don’t see that problem at home because he is not put in the position of having to share an adult's attention with 25 others or do things he would rather not do.

This is my only secondary school experience. I have nothing to compare this to, so I don’t know if this is standard or over the top. All I know is that we’re a sinking ship and I’m trying to help him. I’ve never asked strangers on the internet their thoughts before today as I’ve been trying (and failing) my best to sort this quietly.
i actually agree with you comments. Why is this how it is? High schools of the 90’s was so much easier. No phones, no social media crap etc etc etc. but, we don’t live in the 90’s anymore and schools and society has moved on in terms of pastoral needs. I actually thought it was ridiculous that it was needed- until I needed it (first week yr7, photos of my son were sent around the school making fun of his appearance) the messages made their way to me. Awful. Heart wrenching, especially when he asked me to ‘make it stop please mum’ and I couldn’t.
could you if in the 90’s? Yes! After 3:00pm it was done and if it was really bad your dad knocked on their door.
teachers dealt with stuff, kids were more respectful. There was no pastoral, ADHD etc etc. (well there was. But that’s another topic).
now, I’m trying to manage and solve stuff I know nothing about whilst trying to bring up a decent human being when quite frankly, I feel that everything is geared up for me to fail.
My son is asking for my help and support. The school is asking for my support and I’m sat in the middle trying to be fair, see both sides and not be that ‘my son is an angel parent’ (I really try not to be!)
his timing might not be appropriate when he calls, and I tell him as much. But I’d rather him feel he can reach out than do something stupid by not communicating.
id rather he didn’t call me. But I’m glad he feels he can.
sorry for the rant but it isn’t quite a clear cut as one phone call before a lesson.
Also, I’m not convinced he’s thinking things through quite as simply as you put it. I wish he would! He often reflects on how things could of gone better, we have many discussions of this nature.
so yes. Hard agree with you. Ban the phones! Ban social media. 100% I’m with you.
it’s just not that simple.
i really wish it was.
apologies for the long reply, i appreciate everyone’s point of view here, which is what i posted.

Maybe it's time to consider a change of school if you are convinced nothing else is going to work. Some teens just do not respond to rigid rules and sanctions, and they get demoralised, as you describe. If you genuinely believe the school regime is going to result in him doing badly in his GCSEs then perhaps a move now might work - but there is no certainty. It is puzzling that your posts don't seem to mention his friends (sorry if I have missed something) but if he doesn't have a good secure friendship group that again might be a reason to consider a move. If he is bright then you probably are going to need to push as much as you can to ensure he gets the grades he is capable of. What might actually motivate him to be a bit more studious? Final points, what have subject teachers said at parents' evenings, and look at his school exercise books to see if you can gauge how much work he is doing in class, it might be revealing.

In all honesty, OP, it's a battle. Constant disruption, rudeness, lack of respect, lack of self control, problems with teacher recruitment and retention and low budgets have led to this.
I would love a relaxed atmosphere in my classroom. However, it's often not achievable with so many students who are not prepared, nor have parental support for, learning.
As you will have noted from my previous posts, I am sympathetic to your situation and I do think your child needs support and help and effective diagnosis.
I knew it would turn into a bit of a schools bash, but please consider why schools have had to go down this route.
Best of luck.

Thanks for your comment. I see your point.
so no, he doesn’t get on with everyone. He does outside of school. Adults and children.
he has always been chatty. Always. That is ultimately his personality. It has always been mentioned in parents evening. It was just never a serious issue before secondary school and I didn’t see this coming.

my comments regarding him being quiet is genuine. If he suddenly stopped talking I would be concerned. He always has so much to say. So much to talk about. If he suddenly stopped, it would be concerning (although school would be pleased). I would also to be honest as it would make things a lot easier.

I have tried. Begged him to be mute in certain classes. He feels he has tried on some days and still gets into trouble. He feels his card is marked and even when it’s not him he’s the easy target. I would love to sit in on a class so I can figure this out and sort it but as you guessed, that isn’t possible.

i don’t like him texting me. I feel absolute dread when I see his name pop up on my phone during the day. I like that he feels he can text me which is very different. I have a teenager that communicates with me. I didn’t think that would be the case. I value our relationship and he listens to me.

that said, I am going to talk to him about this considering everyone’s comments on the topic and discuss leaving his phone at home during the day. I think it’s worth a try to let him figure things out without being able to contact me via his phone. Not sure that will help, but it’s worth a try.

appreciate all your points, thank you

I could have written this word for word about DD13. She has ADHD. Watching with interest.

OP my DS was really similar to yours in y7 & 8. It all came to a head at the beginning of yr8 after a fight on the school bus. The deputy head involved the SENCo and things slowly improved. He changed friendship group in yr9 and things got even better. DS is now in Yr 10 and is thriving.
Things that helped in his case were fidget toys, movement breaks (he has a timeout card for when he gets overwhelmed) and practising how to talk to teachers he doesn't gel with. He tends to do better sitting at the back because he isn't then turning around to see what he's missed but the agreement is he sits away from others to avoid talking.
He also has a TA mentor who specialises in supporting emotional regulation in the adhd/asd boys.
In his case DS was definitely also being a dick on purpose and changing friends has massively helped with this.
I would advise you to insist on meeting with the SENCo and push hard for support and investigation into adhd/learning needs.

This, he sounds just like my daughter, although she doesn't act out but she has slowly disengaged from lessons even though she is very bright so it's really frustrating. She's on the wait list for an ADHD assessment, she also had the screening done in school and it has shown she has delayed processing which is the reason she struggles in lessons, it takes her longer to process what's been said, so by the time she's understood it and is ready for the next bit of info, the class has already moved on to the 3rd bit if info and she's missed the bit in-between so gets lost and confused so she just gives up!
Definitely ask him how he finds following and understanding the lesson and ask for sendco intervention, you will probably have to fight really hard for this but just keep repeating yourself till they do it.

The more you write about him, it becomes clearer that he has some rather disjointed thinking at times. I think there is most definitely a SEND need there. Do look at DLD and also ADHD and potentially ASC. he is now really anxious about getting sanctions so is worse.

I’d state my life savings he has ADHD.

The lessons he gets sanctioned in - are these the topics he has low interest in?

Do you have ADHD yourself OP? You seem to have a strong desire for justice. It’s a common trait.

I was this person at school. I was clever but so easily distracted when I found something boring.

So would l.

Chatty✔️
fidgety✔️
can’t concentrate✔️
low level disruption✔️
needs parental reassurance to self regulate (phoning)✔️
Needs to be reminded✔️
Anxiety✔️
Eating problems✔️
Sensitive (bo girl old people)✔️
Can’t cope in rigid environments.✔️
Time blindness ( on phone in loo at start of lesson✔️

Interesting about lesson interest and behaviour. My dd had this.

Look at Dr Russel Berkeley

Does he get offended or hurt easily?

I'm not sure if it's seen as 'draconian' any more, it would have been when we were at school but now it seems pretty standard to have lots of acronyms like SLANT and sanctions for looking around, fiddling with your pen, slouching etc.

Your son sounds like a normal 13y old boy.

Unfortunately schools don’t seem to like to deal with children who aren’t easy and willing to fit into their neat little boxes. Once they are targeted for their behaviour it seems they are never able to be seen any differently. For a brief time I worked in a senior school and viewed this myself. Once a teacher decides that a particular child is ‘trouble’ they never seem to be able to get away from the label and so eventually don’t even bother trying to.

Can you imagine how you would feel if you were constantly (at least 30 hours a week) being treated in a negative manner by adults who you were never allowed to question or talk back to (not in a rude manner either) for fear of further detentions etc?

Have you considered homeschooling him?

He sounds like he’s going to grow up and be a wonderful adult especially with a supportive family as you seem to be.

Very difficult. There may well be elements of additional needs here, possibly ADHD, and it would be worth looking into SENCO. But I also think people can be quick to jump to that, when a lot of what you are describing might be fairly normal for a kid his age. I also think there will be some teachers who tolerate kids being chatty and lively and having an opinion more than others, maybe even welcome it, more than others.
Is there any kind of other pattern to the classes he is being disciplined in other than it being teachers he doesn’t like? For example, does it happen in the more ‘academic’ subjects eg English, Maths, languages, or history as opposed to the more practical science, PE, art or tech? Because the more academic ones rely more on being able to sit still and be quiet, so he would stand out more.
Is it possible he is really bright and some of the classes are too easy and he needs more challenged? Equally, does he maybe have sight or hearing issues or dyslexia/dyspraxia that make some subjects more challenging for him and he’s playing up to compensate?
Keep reinforcing strategies for managing the difficulties that come up- e.g it’s great if you have something to say but make sure you put your hand up and don’t shout out, make sure your tone isn’t cheeky, ignore your mates carrying on or tell them to rap it.
Im afraid I think you probably do need to be putting consequences in place at home as well. It’s fair enough to say a problem has already been dealt with by detention, but clearly it’s not been dealt with if he keeps doing the same behaviours! If he gets a detention I think it’s fair to say he is also grounded that evening or loses phone privileges.

Wow. Thanks for this.
although I was looking for well rounded advice, it’s nice to hear that maybe he’s just a boy trying to find his way.
not that this solves our problems but I appreciate the positivity.
sadly home schooling is not an option. We both have careers that financially we wouldn’t be able to drop. Also, I tried it once during lockdown. Which is possibly why I do have so much respect for teachers, even if I am struggling to understand what’s going on and slowly loosing the will to live with some of them, I ultimately know their job is really difficult. I’m no teacher and I can’t pretend to be. My husband would be totally useless also.

I also want him to succeed in a mainstream environment somehow, I think it’s healthy in some respects. Important for life as it tough out there. I just didn’t expect it to be so stressful and exhausting for us all.

thanks again, we do try! x

OP, my ds15 is in a very similar situation and is currently one behaviour level down from suspension. The behaviour for the last year or so has spectacularly ramped up with 2 teachers in particular, so much so he's having to have a "reset" meeting with both teachers next week. I am torn between he is genuinely being a dick in these lessons or they just have it in for him and he can do no right by them, I get that they are both subjects he hates but both on his mandatory curriculum. I have constant dialogue with school and it is bloody exhausting despite the senco being superb, its mainly now all been deferred to the year group lead / head now so it feels like even she has given up with him.

He has adhd and is medicated so while adhd makes it hard for him to focus/ study, everyone is at a loss with the issues in these subjects and like you I would love to be a fly on the wall to see this "persistent defiant and disrespectful behaviour".

Oh and lock his phone down during school hours

OP you are working so hard because your lovely boy is challenging and very sensitive, overly focussed on fairness, highly distractible, slow to process verbal instructions and is someone who needs predictability.

whether these traits imply neurodiversity- they often do - or don’t he needs better support from then SENCO and a plan going forward. He is very stressed I think and overly likes the teachers who don’t make him feel like that. The overwhelming number of disaffected boys can be transformed by feeling valued, supported and taken seriously. He is lacking most of these with most staff and also has to take responsibility for that.

Also insist he is assessed to see if he required extra time - useful and gives you insight into which areas are a struggle.

The school seems to be treating talkative behaviour in a really extreme way. Some schools are exceptionally punitive and you can just end up in a horrible cycle. I actually feel for your boy here. The whole concept of sanction points annoys me anyway.

Sorry no advice but just wanted to offer some solidarity. It sounds really tough, especially when it's so at odds with the boy you know at home.

Agreed.

OP, if it were me I would do the following:

1. let him stay home on the bad days. He’s trying not to disappoint you but he is school refusing. And then I’d tell the school, via email, that he’s refusing to attend due to the stress and anxiety their behaviour towards him is causing.

Why? Because they should have had the SENCO involved a long time ago, and they need a kick up the arse. If you explicitly say it is the school and the behaviour of certain school staff towards him - the school suddenly has to engage properly.

It’s been clear for a long time that endless detention doesn’t work. There’s something else here. And they’ve clearly decided that anything he does is wrongs and youve had to fight them to see their errors (eg the fizzy drink issue). They are also already aware they’ve stressed him to the point he stopped eating - and it’s clear they didn’t give a damn.

They won’t change their approach unless you force the issue. And making it clear that you now have EBSA makes it a problem they actually have to fix.