VAT and Bursary impact

[tam255]

For some parents in London on a reasonable income who can’t afford to buy in the catchment of a good/ outstanding school, sending to a private school with partial fee assistance/ bursary is the next best option.

Often these big private schools in London in fact often support the state sector, local schools in their area with use of facilities, pools, drama studios etc and are very generous indeed even with teaching staff, Saturday schools etc supporting local schools. This important fact just seems to be forgotten.

As for the student intake, in fact in London most of the private schools have more diversity than the superselective Grammar schools!! Getting a place into a superselective Grammar school for a child in London requires deep pockets. A bright child who cannot afford all the numerous tutors and mock classes etc has no chance of getting through a superselective grammar school and if you can’t afford to live in the catchment area of a good comprehensive will miss out there too.

The reality is that, if a child on a part bursary is in primary school yes, you could have an option to move to a state school at some point. However if a child on a part bursary say is in private secondary school yr 9 onwards ( where subject choices etc have been made) it’s going to be impossible to just change them to the state sector till sixth form.

Yes, there will always be millionaires and billionaires in the private schools but also a lot of parents who are covered partially with bursary’s. With all the vat added it will impact the bursaries which is sad and more importantly the support the private schools offer to the local state schools around in their catchment.

But of course you could have imagined it, the VAT suggestion has been floating around for years.

there would be an entire cohort of professional parents supporting the state school with their time and fundraising efforts

😂 these professional parents (doctors, lawyers, businessmen) do not have time to invest and fundraise! Children of affluent parents going into the state system are not going to automatically elevate state schools by osmosis! The only impact it will have is forcing children who would have been eligible for that school to a worse school by making catchment areas smaller.

Often these big private schools in London in fact often support the state sector, local schools in their area with use of facilities, pools, drama studios etc and are very generous indeed even with teaching staff, Saturday schools etc supporting local schools. This important fact just seems to be forgotten.

@OP I live in London. There are quite a few private schools around. I have never heard about giving facilities to use or teachung staff to the local states.
The only thing one private schools does is free Saturday sessions for year 5. They ask state primary to send them top performers for those sessions. The reason being they are looking for talent that then they can encourage to join the school providing some financial solutions such as bursary. My school was cheeky and run a lotery among all kids that want to attend these. Not the top talent
For the same vested interest they run maths competition among Y5

So tbh I have never heard about local private schools doing anything beyond what is in their interest

DDs Indy school runs free activity weeks during the school holidays. 9am-3pm for 5 days including lunch + snacks. Free for children within a certain radius of the school. That's ever school holiday + 2 weeks over summer

No they aren't for profit. They are either charities or not for profit. For most of them they put the surplus into bursaries and scholarships.

@tam255

For some parents in London on a reasonable income who can’t afford to buy in the catchment of a good/ outstanding school, sending to a private school with partial fee assistance/ bursary is the next best option

People who can afford private fees of 25k pa certainly can afford a mortgage in the area where there are good schools in London. London is big and you will always find a secondary school that supports the same Options as selected in private. . And there is always an option of renting near the excellent state school even for a while.

The Labour talk about Vat has been for years now and the gradual decline of Tories was obvious from the Brexit times

"the sports teams, the choir, playing in the music ensembles at national competitions etc. They definitely would not get those opportunities at the private school"
What you have listed are exactly the reasons that many choose indy schools, because those aren't available in their local state schools. That's why many of our top athletes go to Indy schools on sports scholarships. DDs Indy school has produced 8 England Rugby team members and multiple England Test cricket players as just 2 examples. DD has travelled with the school choir to sing at Ely, Durham and York cathedrals and sung at the Sage in Gateshead. Those opportunities wouldn't have been available in any of the local state schools

@twistyizzy

They are not for profit in UK of course but the bursaries and scholarships are mostly funded by alumni ( Gift Aid)

I agree with comment. I have the government makes provisions for SEN parents.

Again wrong! The big public schools have endowment to fund bursaries but most of the local Indy schools have bursaries from any surplus from fees. Hence why they are looking at reducing these now, parents paying full fees and were happy for surplus to fund opportunities for lower income families but are now going to be hard pressed to afford an extra 20%, will now expect any surplus to offset the VAT.

We are only talking about UK schools here so people need to be accurate in the purpose ie they are not for profit organisations

DD has travelled with the school choir to sing at Ely, Durham and York cathedrals and sung at the Sage in Gateshead. Those opportunities wouldn't have been available in any of the local state schools

In every faith state school ( in particular Catholic) every child is in the school choir, which is a challenge for a non musical kids. Apart from that they have the special selective choir that travels to all competition. More singing than you can imagine including local churches representing the school group on Sunday.

I live in London, I cannot think about single school in my Borough that doesn't have a choir or wide range of sport clubs available for all kids after or before school and advanced sessions for squads.
Every school sends the representatives to the County Sports day in June.

I sometimes have a feeling that people who send their kids to private schools didn't look at the provision in the state.

And I confirmed that part @twistyizzy . The private schools are not allowed profit status in UK. They reinvest their profit in school from marketing, through facilities, and extracurricular activities.

No it’s not cruel. Children have always moved schools (state and private) because their parents moved jobs, or because of divorce or other events, or in the case of private schools their parents couldn’t afford the fees. There is nothing new in children moving schools.

"In every faith school" the majority of state schools aren't faith schools
London is very different to out of London. We are in the NE where funding per pupil for state is lower and there are some of the lowest outcomes in England. In our local schools the clubs are: football or netball. That's it plus no speciallist PE staff. No choir because it isn't "cool" etc.

If you are stuck in a London centric bubble it can be hard to imagine life outside of the capital but trust me, not at state schools have the opportunities you are taking about.

And I was correcting a PP who said they are run as profit making businesses.

Yes we do. The governing board I’m on has a number of professionals on it as does the PTA.

Not exactly helpful hours for parents who work and need childcare.

The training is for profit. The funds are then invested in the school hence the school overall is not for profit.

So holding out that independent schools are running these training hubs from the goodness of their hearts is rubbish. They make money from it to use as they wish in their own schools.

In line with fee paying holiday clubs. No holiday clubs around here run longer times.
So you are now knocking them for running 100s of hours of free childcare each year because they don't exactly tie in with working hours. Well neither does primary school does it yet all kids go to that! Indy schools really can't win, criticised for absolutely everything they do.

@twistyizzy even in NE you will find faith schools and trust me they all are "mad singers".
As for funding it doesn't work basing on the assumption: NE has to get less per pupil
All schools are funded on a per pupil basis. There is a National Funding Formula to make sure that a school’s per-pupil funding reflects a number of factors including the characteristics of their pupils (like how many pupils have fallen behind), how many pupils receive free school meals, the geographic location of the school (to reflect different salary costs) and much more.

I don't think that choir and sport clubs are native to London only. Especially sports clubs are available in most of schools nation wide. You may be in an unlucky catchment of an exception to this rule.

There is 1 faith school which is incredibly over subscribed and we don't live in the catchment. Look at the outcomes of state secondary schools in the NE.
I have already stated what sports clubs are on offer in our local state secondary. 2. That's all, 2 and neither of which DD enjoys.

There is only one private school within reasonable travelling distance of us with 250 pupils from age 2 -18. They definitely do not offer the same opportunities as the state school which my son can walk to.

They have pupils competing at national level in hockey, netball, cricket, skiing, gymnastics and ice skating. My child is one of these. The school have not ‘produced’ these kids. Their parents will have introduced them to the sport, encouraged them, and provided a significant amount of support (time, emotional and financial). School have allowed them time for additional training and competitions. Kids attending private schools on a sports scholarship may show some talent but once again they get an extra leg up. Scholarships are a tiny proportion of the fees and those kids are very likely to have attended the private school without the scholarship ime.

It’s a misnomer to think that private schools will always provide more and better opportunities.

You seem to live in a very strange place.

The national chain mine went to the week before last ran 8.30 to 5.30 with drop off from 8am and pick up at 6pm for an extra fee. That’s not unusual

DDs Indy school runs free activity weeks during the school holidays. 9am-3pm for 5 days including lunch + snacks. Free for children within a certain radius of the school. That's ever school holiday + 2 weeks over summer

Yes the various school clubs use private premises...at a cost and not for free. They pay for use.
Also, the clubs UK wide are available for kids on free meals. The council pays club owners for the kid's attendance .