VAT and Bursary impact

[tam255]

For some parents in London on a reasonable income who can’t afford to buy in the catchment of a good/ outstanding school, sending to a private school with partial fee assistance/ bursary is the next best option.

Often these big private schools in London in fact often support the state sector, local schools in their area with use of facilities, pools, drama studios etc and are very generous indeed even with teaching staff, Saturday schools etc supporting local schools. This important fact just seems to be forgotten.

As for the student intake, in fact in London most of the private schools have more diversity than the superselective Grammar schools!! Getting a place into a superselective Grammar school for a child in London requires deep pockets. A bright child who cannot afford all the numerous tutors and mock classes etc has no chance of getting through a superselective grammar school and if you can’t afford to live in the catchment area of a good comprehensive will miss out there too.

The reality is that, if a child on a part bursary is in primary school yes, you could have an option to move to a state school at some point. However if a child on a part bursary say is in private secondary school yr 9 onwards ( where subject choices etc have been made) it’s going to be impossible to just change them to the state sector till sixth form.

Yes, there will always be millionaires and billionaires in the private schools but also a lot of parents who are covered partially with bursary’s. With all the vat added it will impact the bursaries which is sad and more importantly the support the private schools offer to the local state schools around in their catchment.

sorry, you are just ignorant, and showing it. That award you were talking about is an advertising stunt.

The training you are talking about is largely done for profit. Many schools are training hubs, mostly state schools, and training in a state school is of far more value.

We offer mocks totally for free, for any child within a 10 mile radius. As do many grammar schools.

State schools are not "competing for the brightest" independent schools are. That is what bursaries and scholarships are about.

I don't really know what you are trying to prove by this thread. You seem to be trying to say that independent schools are benefitting the community, but nothing you have held up as an example shows them benefitting anyone but themselves. All you are doing is showing that you don't seem to have grasped the basic principle of independent schools. They are businesses, run for profit, and as such, need to be taxed.

Oh, and saying I clearly don't like private schools is pointless. Whether I do or I don't has no bearing. I work in education, I know what I am talking about, you don't.

(Saying people are forced into paying private fees because they can't afford a mock 11+ also makes no sense at all, even if I didn't know how easy it is to get a free mock, the prices you have quoted are only £60. Not enough to force someone to have to pay private fees for 7 years to get out of! - no, I haven't clicked on the link, why would I)

Most of the outreach stuff is simply a paper exercise, when you look as to what they actually do and talk to the state schools, most will roll their eyes.

I’d love to see the stats from the teacher training run by private schools as to how many actually go into the state sector. It’s realistically an exercise to make sure that the private sector has a supply of maths and physics teacher. It will also be paid for by the state. To be frank, I think all these trained by these private school hubs and don’t go into the state sector, private schools should repay the bursary and fees to the government. (Exception being SEND schools.)

I do think that all these programmes whether real or just for show are based on a false premise - That private schooling is 'better' and that those 93% of disadvantaged kids who go to state school are the only ones to benefit. And should be grateful.

The primary reasons that private school is 'better' is the selective nature of the pupil cohorts and the amount of money the schools have to spend on super & extra curricular activities.

If this money were available in the state system and the ability to select on pretty much any divisive criteria (religion, ability, wealth etc) were removed then all these outreach 'charitable' activities would not be required.

Miss out on one holiday a year and they can pay the 20%.

This is the same argument though that those parents are buying privilege for those children with SEN and if more parents were in the state sector there would be more pressure on the govt to provide the right provision for all.

I am going to write to my new MP and the new SoS for Education to explain my son’s experience of secondary so far and what the school have done to support his needs - as from what I hear from other parents of children with similar needs to his, many state secondaries are not doing this for them and many of them are being failed. I think many more kids like my son could successfully navigate state mainstream secondary if more schools were like his.

Agree and well done for writing to your member of Parliament about this. The whole system for SEN needs looking at as from my experience it is not fit for purpose. State schools should be able to accommodate SEN children, it should not be necessary to send them private.

What a load of tripe.

The idea that we ought to tug our forelocks to private schools for so "generously" sharing their facilities/resources is honestly mind-boggling. Both my kids go to London comps. Our area is chocka with private schools. They're not open to our kids. On paper, they might claim this, that, and the other, but the reality is lip service at best. Private schools are businesses, end of. Let's stop pretending there's anything more than surface-deep "charity" to them. I'm so tired of these whinging threads.

Disabled children have the right to equity in education. And until the government provides adequate state settings that meet these children’s needs, then it could very well be argued that implementing VAT to children without EHCP’s is unlawful.

I have no idea of the answer to this, I am genuinely interested.

For those on bursaries at private schools, what kind of ballpark figure would VAT on the proportion of fees that they pay add each year?

We only have 1 private school in the whole of our county with only 250 pupils from age 2-18. 40 in the entire sixth form. Despite only being 6 miles away, I am not aware of any opportunities or support that it offers to local state schools. There are no private schools at all in 2 of our neighbouring counties.

My child has chosen to stay at state sixth form not just for the A levels but the other opportunities that they will get there - the sports teams, the choir, playing in the music ensembles at national competitions etc. They definitely would not get those opportunities at the private school.

Doubt very much anyone will get anywhere with this… especially given the huge number of SEN children in state school.

If a child has an EHCP then that’s a different issue. And I’m sure it will be argued that these SEN children should apply for a EHCP first to access private schools if they think this is the only school that can educate their child.

I don’t think those outside the SEND space understand quite how difficult it is to obtain an EHCP. The school SENDCO and I spent months collecting evidence for dc’s application, the LA still refused to assess. Our options at that point were either enlist a SEND barrister at circa 20k per EHCP and prepare for a 12-14 month long legal battle or continue funding school fees as best as we can. We chose the latter.

You may be right, I however, do - my child has SEN and is in a state school. I know exactly how difficult it is. My child would probably have benefited from a private education, I'm sure, smaller classes, more one to one to attention etc., but it has never ever been an option. A multiple tiered education system breeds resentment that's not good for anyone. Personally I would do away with private schools, but that's a different discussion.

As for getting an EHCP that's a whole other thread. I do really think state schools should be able to deliver quality education to children with SEN. Currently, I also think that the whole system for SEN needs reform as it's not fit for purpose.

@northernerinthesouth2000 I absolutely agree with you! We have tried state and it failed our child so miserably, to the point their MH suffered significantly. When we hit crisis point, it was either private school or nothing.

@SpaceRaiders so sorry to hear that. It’s awful and I hope your child is doing well and you manage with the changes in VAT. I really don’t want to see any child suffering because of the failure of the system. Our state school has been ok, could have been better but then I’m also aware it could be much worse.

I am hopeful that just maybe this government might review the SEN system!

My DD has just attended a residential summer school at St. Paul's, London and has come back absolutely buzzing about careers in Science. I am so grateful to them. Cost to me = nothing
https://www.stpaulsschool.org.uk/our-community/school-charity-partnerships/space-school-2024/#:~:text=Space%20School%20is%20a%20FREE,to%20Wednesday%2017%20July%202024.

This is for 30 students. A maximum of 3 from any one school. You do know that hundreds of state schools put similar events over the summer for hundreds of local students for free? i have taken whole classes to similar events, for example one in London a few years ago where they built robots and met Brian Cox, among others.

Just give up with this attempt to show that private schools are doing anything for the communities, they are not. They do a minimum of whatever to achieve charity status to benefit themselves. The idea that they are helping anyone else is just a totally pointless argument.

They just don't.

They need to contribute to society properly by paying proper taxes like any other business.

I don't get what people are complaining about. I can't afford the VAT on building an extension to my house, therefore I can't have an extension. That is how money works.

if you were paying a business before the taxes change, you either can afford to continue paying with the tax, and do so, or can't afford it and stop using the business.

That is all there is to it.

Private schools are not in a different class in any moral or virtuous sense. They are just a business. Most people can't afford to pay for their services. Some can. Some could before but now can't. That is life

Whatever people's stance on the vat policy is, I'm sure everyone can agree that it's cruel to uproot a child in the middle of their schooling let alone the middle of the year!

Icepearl please DM me, if you have time, with any info on where to access the similar schemes. My DD is always on the look out and hadn't managed to find any. She's very keen on anything science-related. Physics teaching at her school not so great.

I have a child at a state school, which is one of the consortium supported by Kings Wimbledon, referred to by the OP. The fact this outreach somehow by the OP being presented as a legitimate and meaningful equivalence to the privilege of private school is laughable. Cannot wait for the VAT to come in.

Honestly I also can’t really work out why the private schools bother with bursaries.I’m ex private school myself and bored of being asked to contribute to fees I am not paying for my own child. Unless a child is so gifted to eg be a clear England rugby player which will give kudos to the school, what’s the point for the school, presumably trying to justify charitable status? Those kids are being sifted out the state sector. Yet more privilege encouraged by private schools.

Bursary kids wouldn’t be likely to have more than one modest holiday a year.

You’re not making the correct analogy. If there had never been VAT on building work in the whole history of this country but then someone forced you to pay it halfway through the work, when you could never have imagined having to budget for it - THAT is the correct analogy.

Collectively private schools provide £930million pa to educate approximately 165k kids (1/4 of all kids at private school) on some kind of bursary or scholarship - 40k on full bursaries - the largest collective charitable donors in the UK. All of the biggest contributor schools are legally designated as charities (in some cases for hundreds of years), some with significant endowments dedicated to the charity of education - Charity = £0 profit.
Whatever people's views/prejudices/political leanings or strong emotions on the subject - this all becomes irrelevant & will end up in the courts. Rachel Reeves has circumnavigated the statute book to bypass this in a finance bill (the easiest route) but it's implementation will not be so easy.
It will not only be challenged under articles 2&14 of the ECHR which stopped previous Labour administrations from the same policy (and nothing has changed in law since) nb. Freedoms of religion & philosophy are also covered by the universal human right to education & will not only limit the challenge to religious schools e.g. Ampleforth (Benedictine) but much more broadly e.g single sex or SEN education.
Labour will effectively be arguing that these schools do not provide educational services- which is clearly absurd
If the AG chooses to ignore legal advice on the ECHR (let's hope he doesn't follow the Tory example on Rwanda (that breached article 3 of the ECHR) to prioritise political performative cruelty above the advice) the policy will still not last long, but if it does somehow, the next immediate challenge would be UK discrimination law (e.g. age, disability etc) and if anyone can legally claim that any judge would see that charging 5-18yo kids VAT on their primary board & lodging or e.g. PE/RE or music lessons when no one else in the country of any age or wealth is charged VAT on them - & ignore previous legal test cases (e.g the Mcloed judgment on pensions) - they are frankly grasping at straws.
Ultimately the policy is legally doomed, but due to it being passed in a finance bill the legal machinations will take time or as long as Labour think performative cruelty is worthwhile politically - but doomed nonetheless - & ironically a short period of implementation is the best outcome for private schools as it allows them a window to reclaim a huge windfall in input VAT before legal pressures become unsustsinable & our human rights, which we should all treasure, are restored

Yes because if these 'only just affording it' kids were in the state system, there would be an entire cohort of professional parents supporting the state school with their time and fundraising efforts which would be an enormous benefit. That committment would far more valuable than the crumbs the private sector offer their poor cousins. Removing that does as much damage as segregating the children.

Grammar schools are a different issue and no, it doesn't take deep pockets. Grammar schools are for the most academic children - this in itself is a special need and like those at the other end of the spectrum, they're poorly catered for in mainstream. Many grammar school pupils do in fact do have special needs - this is anecdotal but there seems to be higher than average ASD in the grammar system. Grammar schools offer hope of an education suited to the aptitude of these and other exceptionally academic children. The children who belong there do not need tutoring or whatever other nonsense you're suggesting. If that's what it takes, the parents are deluding themselves and their children.

I understand the argument against grammars, but for me there's arguably a need for specialist education - but one based on wealth is harder to justify - no?