VAT and Bursary impact

[tam255]

For some parents in London on a reasonable income who can’t afford to buy in the catchment of a good/ outstanding school, sending to a private school with partial fee assistance/ bursary is the next best option.

Often these big private schools in London in fact often support the state sector, local schools in their area with use of facilities, pools, drama studios etc and are very generous indeed even with teaching staff, Saturday schools etc supporting local schools. This important fact just seems to be forgotten.

As for the student intake, in fact in London most of the private schools have more diversity than the superselective Grammar schools!! Getting a place into a superselective Grammar school for a child in London requires deep pockets. A bright child who cannot afford all the numerous tutors and mock classes etc has no chance of getting through a superselective grammar school and if you can’t afford to live in the catchment area of a good comprehensive will miss out there too.

The reality is that, if a child on a part bursary is in primary school yes, you could have an option to move to a state school at some point. However if a child on a part bursary say is in private secondary school yr 9 onwards ( where subject choices etc have been made) it’s going to be impossible to just change them to the state sector till sixth form.

Yes, there will always be millionaires and billionaires in the private schools but also a lot of parents who are covered partially with bursary’s. With all the vat added it will impact the bursaries which is sad and more importantly the support the private schools offer to the local state schools around in their catchment.

But that is on the parents for sending them to a school where the fees are so close to being unaffordable

@Newskool Rarely have I seen anyone talk about those SEN children with no EHCP’s who are effectively stuck in the middle.

We are in the same position, both Dd have SEN needs which weren’t able to be met in the state sector. We are considering our options. But it looks like this will now cost the LA over 400k+ in school fees, not to mention the legal fees to go through the EHCP process.

Incorrect. A few famous public schools have wealthy endowment but most cone from fee surplus. Private schools are either charities or non profit making therefore surplus go into bursaries to support less financially able pupils

There are over 100 000 kids with SEN in private schools and only approx 10000 of these have EHCPs.

Which threads have you been reading? This ALWAYS comes up.

Serious question, how do you know these stats please?

@Tiredalwaystired Admittedly I’m not always on mumsnet so apologies if I’ve missed the countless posts discussing that issue specifically.

No worries. There is genuinely sympathy out there for children like your child as ideally there would be appropriate numbers of spaces for SEN kids which we know there are not. Maybe this money can go towards making more appropriate spaces as a priority.

I completely don't recognise the educational landscape described in the OP as London. Grammar schools are open to all, not tutoring is required. No deep pocket is required. Mine went without me spending more than about £20 on a couple of books of practice papers.

Private schools lending staff to state schools? Private schools and state schools draw from the same pool of teachers, and many teachers move between the sectors throughout their career. Some prefer private, although terms and conditions are often better in state. In what way would a private school teacher be of benefit for a state school to borrow? What a strange idea.

Use of land/ facilities etc, sometimes, although the charges are often higher than using other local facilities. I last "borrowed" a private school facility around 10 years ago, (a recording studio) Have found cheaper options since. We do borrow sports fields, but that is from other state schools, and lend our running track.

I've taught in private and state schools, behaviour and attainment is similar in both, and so is teaching.

They are freely available from ISC etc

I’m sort of in the opposite position. We applied to 3 local, small private schools for our autistic son with ADHD believing he would struggle in a large state mainstream - all 3 turned him down. Quite shockingly, the SENCO of one private school which had been recently justifying its existence by quoting the high number of pupils with SEN it supported (landowner was trying to kick them off the site and put an SEN school in its place) gave my son a multiple choice test with lots of inference in it and then was surprised when he became overwhelmed and went out and sat on the stairs - like she had set him up to fail!! We had thought the school would be perfect, within walking distance, small class sizes and a small campus with the same number of kids in the entire school as there are in one year of our local state schools. But no, these schools had plenty of people queuing up to pay their fees, presumably without the SEN my son has, so it was off to our 4th choice state school for him - 240 other kids in his year, yet one of the private schools said they thought he would ‘struggle moving between classrooms’ of their tiny school!

Anyway, his state mainstream has been fantastic. The teachers are empathetic and caring and approachable, and school leadership listen and are responsive. I’ve had to put a lot of effort in to communicate with his teachers and several meetings with the SENCO and Deputy Head, but my son has successfully finished year 7 and is not (yet!) freaking out about going back in year 8. He is also exceeding expectations in maths and science, so he’s not just ‘got by’.

I know all kids with SEN are different and most schools seem to be different, but I wanted to share the fact that not all state schools fail SEN kids and in fact some excel in teaching them. More resources would help them to support these kids even better and let’s hope this Labour govt provides that. But as well as there being state schools that support SEN well, my own experience of private schools is that they are happy to ditch kids with SEN for those without and it has completely changed my view of private education.

One other point, VAT on school fees won’t impact LEAs paying the fees for SEN kids at private schools as they will reclaim the VAT from HMRC. Also the govt has said that kids with acute SEN whose needs can only be met by private schools will not have to pay VAT.

My son went to the local comp and came out with 4 A*’s. And no, we never tutored. It’s the child not the school. Many schools in London are having to close classes in year groups due to not enough children.

Never seen the private schools around here sharing any of their facilities or resources with the public school.

I’m talking specifically about London and the large independent schools that work in partnership with a lot of local state schools. Not talking about scholarships but about bursaries. Partial bursaries like every bursary are means tested you pay how much you can afford. So yes, a added 20% VAT would be something these parents would not be able to afford.Parents from low income families in the local area are well aware of bursaries as the independent schools through their local school partnership programme make them well aware of them. A lot has changed over the years, and independent schools do a lot to help the local partnership schools.

For instance, the award for the Independent school of the year for Contribution to social mobility this year was awarded to Latymer Upper school. 5 schools were the finalist for the award (Godolphin and Latymer, Latymer Upper, Magdalen College, Reigate Grammar and Wellington college). These schools would not have just been shortlisted for nothing!
https://www.latymer-upper.org/latymer-wins-social-mobility-award/#:~:text=Latymer%20Wins%20Social%20Mobility%20Award%20%2D%20Latymer%20Upper%20School

Just google and see the Local state partnership schools associated for schools like St Pauls, Kings, Westminster, City of London, Hampton, Whitgift ,Trinity, Dulwich, JAGS, Alleyns, Wimbledon High ( to name a few) and other top girl schools and all what they provide to local state schools and the community in London.

I’ve just found a few:
https://www.stpaulsschool.org.uk/st-pauls-in-partnership/#:~:text=In%202023%2C%20more%20than%20ten,and%20teaching%20and%20learning%20strategies.

Kings College School:
https://www.kcs.org.uk/senior-school/commitment-to-the-wider-community/wimbledon-independent-state-schools-partnership

The partnership and Outreach brochure (below) at Kings outlines a lot of what the other schools also do to help with teaching etc and it all does cost money.
https://www.kcs.org.uk/commitment-to-the-wider-community

Southwark schools partnership:
https://sslp.education/
Aware of similar programmes where in music teachers from private school have been sent to teach the year 5/ 6 from local state primary schools instrumental music lessons.

Not quite sure in which year OP daughter went to the grammar school, but in the current environment in London it’s not possible to get into a super selective grammar school like in the old days. It’s super competitive and definitely not achievable by just going through a couple of £20 papers. Even a very bright child has to have the experience of doing a mock test to get a high mark to get in. Yes, if the parent has the time to tutor then you are lucky but it will still cost a fortune in books and resources.

One cannot expect the private schools to keep funding all this to the local schools given VAT. The irony is that Prime Minister Keir Starmer attended Reigate grammar school, which subsequently went private during his time there, meaning that he benefitted in part from a private education, although he received bursaries for this and did not pay fees. But now parents on a partial bursary will have to pay VAT!

Yes, a lot of this partnership work is really valuable to local schools and the local community. Meanwhile, Eton is planning to open three non fee paying sixth form colleges, contributing a million to each. Wonder if the VAT scheme will change those plans? www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-66573046

I have read your post, but I am struggling to believe anyone genuinely believes all this hype.

Who awards the independent school of the year social mobility award? The independent school magazine, does, the free magazine dependent on advertising that sends itself to every independent school in the country for free, whether they want it or not. It has no meaning, it is just another form of self advertising devised by the magazine. The magazine hypes up a school as a form of advertising for the magazine, and the school hypes up the award as a form of advertising for the school. Its like sainsbury's magaizine awarding an award to the sainsbury store that does most for social mobility.

These are the values that Latymer upper says it has which promoted social mobility.

1. To offer financial assistance (through bursaries) to academically ambitious young people from all backgrounds, so that they can benefit from a Latymer education
2. To equip and inspire our students to make a positive impact on society and the world around them
3. To build collaborative partnerships with local schools as a way of sharing academic and pastoral expertise in both directions; by doing this we aim to enhance the skills and knowledge of all students and teachers involved

1. Benefits the school far more than the community - they NEED as many of the highest achievers as possible in order to maintain their status as a super selective grammar
2. Exactly the same as all schools everywhere
3. Claiming to share academic and pastoral expertise in both directions, to be frank they need to take more than give in this area. Why would anyone think that latymer staff have more academic and pastoral expertise than the staff in the comp down the road? There are staff in Latymer that come from comps, and who go on to teach in comps - it is the same pool of staff.

Latymer are super selective, yet do not publish their value- added anywhere. They use a mixture of iGCSEs (which are easier) and entering students for exams early - which is another way of getting higher results, it is so much easier to get high results when doing exams in ones and two that many 6th forms only look at exams taken in year 11 to be included in the entry requirements.

Latymer, I am sure, is a happy school where it is worth the fight to get in, just to be with other children who's parent value education.

It had done a good job in hyping itself up, but lets not pretend it is benefitting the community in any way. A lot of the children on bursaries would get a better education in a local comp. Especially if they are taking iGCSEs and early exams, which are not as valued as a set of standard GCSEs taken in one go.

Not quite sure in which year OP daughter went to the grammar school, but in the current environment in London it’s not possible to get into a super selective grammar school like in the old days. It’s super competitive and definitely not achievable by just going through a couple of £20 papers. Even a very bright child has to have the experience of doing a mock test to get a high mark to get in. Yes, if the parent has the time to tutor then you are lucky but it will still cost a fortune in books and resources.

This is a load of nonsense, I teach in a grammar, and mocks are certainly not required to get in. We do run mocks, but they are not even marked, the mock test is a FREE trial run for any child nervous about the process, and wanting to have a walk through first. They can take their papers home after for parents to look at - but it does not cost anything and they are not marked. I would guess this offer of a walk through is taken up by less than a quarter of the children.

Preparing for the 11+ does not require tutors or expensive books and resources, most resources are free online.

I don't know why you are so keen to push this agenda that private schools are of benefit to the community. The best way they could benefit the community would be to pay tax, as is right and proper

Btw GCSEs are not taken earlier at Latymer Upper. The exception would be a language for which you are a native speaker but not receiving lessons by the school, eg Turkish.

well, that is still a GCSE taken early, isn't it, and you can bet they feed that into their results and take credit for it. - which is what schools have to do, they need a good spin.

I am sure this is a good, happy school. I am not dissing this school in particular, but what the OP is saying about it being a benefit to the community around it in some way is blatantly ridiculous.

It needs to benefit the community by generating taxes.

A lot of this supposed private school outreach work is utter bollocks. Looks good on paper and is nothing in practice.

Real life example - we live v close to one of the UKs most prestigious schools. Apparently they provide Latin A level at a local sixth form college. The prospectus says they do. On turning up at the open day there is no representation from the school whatsoever. No one to talk to or find out how it works, just someone with a vague idea that pupils apparently share their a level class with the paying pupils.

What kid in their right mind would plump for a course like that without having the opportunity to speak to someone, especially if it falls out of the usual college processes? Luckily the local state provision for the subject remains excellent elsewhere so options exist.

Therefore, fee paying school can say they offer it, but sadly there was no take up.

Truth is they don’t want state school kids watering down their prestigious offer.

I’ve lived in the area my whole life and never once seen or heard of an ounce of outreach. They stay in their ivory tower and never mix with the proles. Then we wonder why our politicians don’t understand…

(this is my view of this one school. I’m sure a few do take it seriously - probably the more reasonably priced ones who have some sort of links with middle classes rather than upper)

I agree with this, a lot of the so called "outreach" is required to be able to claim charity status, and the absolute bare minimum is attempted.

And yes, it is clear to see the extensive damage done to the community as a whole by private education, when you look at the politicians we have had in recent years, and can't understand how they grew up so totally ignorant.

I’m sorry you had a negative experience. Lots of private schools won’t accept SEN children. It’s certainly not a given that you’ll be welcomed in with open arms and a lot of that hinges on the needs of your child.

I have several friends who had a nightmare trying to find senior schools which would accept their children. SENCO’s do weed out children they feel will be better suited elsewhere or if they feel they’ve hit their “quota”, it’s a very difficult balance. A school here had a particularly difficult year group that had a large number of boys with ADHD which led to a lot of the girls leaving. Our experience is that academically rigorous private schools will and do accept a bright SEN child, it’s helps with their exam results after all!

The issue with VAT on SEN school fees is that many parents don’t want EHCP’s. A lot of people don’t understand just how restrictive they are and the impact it has on your ability as a parent to make choices for your child without LA involvement. Private schools will often reject a child with an EHCP’s not because they can’t meet that child’s needs, but because they don’t want to deal with the administrative nightmare and or legal obligations that comes with it!

New data says 111,000+ kids receiving SEN support in Indy schools. That's either free through EHCP but more are receiving support paid for by parents on top of fees.

Well, it all cannot be an advertisement stunt!! OP clearly has a strong dislike of the private schools.

Eg -Look at the Kings outreach brochure clearly documents what the school has done. From revision classes for GCSE Students to opportunity to sixth form students. Even acting as hubs for teacher training for state schools.

On a separate note, see the consortium of schools in the National Mathematics and Physics SCITT, https://nmapscitt.org.uk/  these independent schools are acting as Hubs to train teachers who will also go into the state sector to teach Maths and Physics.

There is a similar SCITT National programme run by a hub of independent schools for training teachers in Modern Foreign languages, https://www.nationalmodernlanguages.com/

Brochures like this aim to increase the awareness of the school’s current projects and the motivation behind them. More importantly, it does show that the top independent schools are doing what they can to support the state sector, according to their means. I just randomly picked a few of the schools to highlight. But each of these top independent schools are contributing something to local schools and community. It’s just that not everybody is aware of it.

Yes, mocks are not needed, but if not given an experience as to what it entails even a bright child can be overwhelmed on the exam day, due to the sheer number of kids sitting the entrance exam. There could be hundreds of kids in that exam hall and given the fact that children are not accustomed to taking exams or sitting a test, all can be stressful, and it could affect a child’s performance. The mocks are not free. For eg in London take the Sutton Consortium Mocks (Wilsons, Sutton and Wallington Grammar all run them).
It’s £60 for Sutton Grammar (see link)
https://www.sgsptamocktests.com/
Wallington Mocks are similar:
https://www.wcgs-sutton.co.uk/page/?title=Familiarisation+Test+Results&pid=85
You can see from the link above for yourself how many kids sit it. The ‘excel file’ link shows all the details the test provides.

All roughly charge £50 /£60, papers are marked and results compared etc……and they are hugely popular. In fact on the day the mock booking is released, the site will often crash or sessions get booked up within a few hours.

It’s not only the independent schools competing for the brightest.

@SuperSue77 In our experience there's a big difference between small prep schools (I know you were talking about secondary) and large super selective senior schools. The local prep did not even try to understand DS's needs, and actually caused harm. We took him out within a year. He spent a year in a local comprehensive that had a functioning SEN team who tried their best but ultimately the environment was wrong for DS and kids with his particular needs.

He now has a bursary place in a large selective senior school that benefits from a well resourced medical centre with counsellors, learning support, mentors, etc. They need these facilities to be able to look after the boarders properly, but of course all pupils can benefit.

Overall though, it's not about the formal SEN provision. It's that DS can manage the day to day in this school without needing additional support.

@SuperSue77 and I'm sorry you son was treated that way. It's unacceptable.