Grammar schooling and the local community

[Cantdohair]

My son is just entering Yr 6 at primary school. We live in a large village in a relatively affluent area with both a primary and secondary school in walking distance.

A big part of the reason we moved here was to be part of a community and so far that has very much been the case. My son has really lucked out with his year group and they are a really strong group of friends who he could theoretically stay with through secondary school. They could all walk in together etc....it all looked very idyllic in my head! (Although I do recognise friendships change a lot at secondary level and they make new friends etc).

Unfortunately I underestimated the grammar school impact. It varies year to year but it looks as though all of his close friends bar one will sitting their 11+. They have all been tutored for some time, are bright, and stand a very good chance of passing. My son is aware of this but is not sitting it himself - this was a joint decision and we don't feel grammar school is right for him. I must admit though, I had underestimated how many of his friends would be sitting it. With the exam in a few weeks we are at peak 11+ fervour amongst parents and peers and it is really starting to bother me.

There is just so much snobbery about it and I just feel really sad that my son will miss out on the secondary school experience I thought he would have within the village that we live. The secondary school in the village is a good school, the results aren't amazing but I suspect this is more the grammar impact rather than the teaching and it has a lovely feel and a great pastoral side. I know its idealistic but it would just be so nice if they could all just go to the same school. I'm sure my son will be fine - he is far less bothered than me (eye roll) - I just feel sad about the whole system and what feels like a lack of loyalty to each other and the community. I'm not sure what I'm looking for really - just some reassurance that I am not crazy for feeling this way!

The authors of the Durham study mentioned earlier in the thread that pointed out that the brightest may well do better at comps than grammars. 😁

Obviously everything are trends that goes without saying I think?

But look at the grammar school data and eligibility for free meals. It is available data. Free meals eligibility is not much different than in state schools as per data. Again, look at trends and not a particular school.

Why would you think that the catholic families or CoE families are more well off? Catholic schools are full of children from first generation families from catholic countries.

Much better in what sense? GCSE results are not everything. I mentioned SEN " just in case" because earlier here somebody put out odd argument that the comprehensive get more money because they have more SEN kids and that was her total misunderstanding of school funding

Not really. Your information is outdated or aquired by old anectotal evidence. Ofsted has not re- inspected the schools marked as Outstanding in some cases even for 10 years. It is only from 2020 that they started to revisit those schools and many schools were downgraded. E.g. two local grammar Greater London schools were downgraded from Oustanding to Good because the teaching wasn't outstanding.

Yes, grammar schools have exams so they draw attention of the brightest kids who do well at the tests but it doesn't mean thag the school is good and made excellent effort to help those kids. Bright kids are not receiving there the support they should get- this is even inficated in underfunding, and that gov pay less per pupil's head at grammar

I think that because the data says so.

The effect is less pronounced for RC schools than for CofE but the mere presence of selection criteria and hoops to jump through tend to favour families who don't move around a lot, who don't work unsociable shifts, who have parents who are together enough to navigate the selection criteria. According to Sutton Trust research on top-performing comprehensives,, faith schools are among the most socially selective group of top schools, more than three times as selective as non-faith schools, and make up 33.4% of the list.

Church congregations are disproportionately well-off. Why wouldn't the children favoured by faith selection be likewise?

Your claim that grammar and non-selectives have similar levels of FSM - where are you getting this? All the data I've seen, going back years, indicates exactly the opposite.

Here's one set of data that indicates the level of underrepresentation, with 5% of grammar pupils taking free school meals, while the average in non-selective schools in selective areas is 23%.

(Lots of data on the same site about the number of grammar pupils who come from outside the state system, pertinent to our previous discussion - the figures for Cranbrook are a particular eye opener.)

This is nothing new - but is still happening and even where FSM children are prioritised in admissions, the process of selection still advantages better-off children.

He will build a new community

@JassyRadlett

Anybody, virtually anybody can apply to CoE school and many schools accept based on catchment with only some schools requesting 1 year of Christian practice. I know an orthodox girl attending CoE school ( Ukrainian) as well as another one from an atheist family. CoE is rather relaxed about the religious aspect as compared to Catholic schools. It is Catholic schools that require a certificate of catholic practice from the parish priest and a baptism certificate. Some even require that the priest sign the document that he has seen them in the church for the last 3 years and the baptism is supposed to take place within e/g first year of a child's life.
There are many foreign people and immigrant children in faith schools. Catholic schools have excellent GCSE results but CoE are only marginally better than comprehensive schools.
Furthermore, the social background of those who attend grammar is also interesting as a vast proportion of the kids at grammar are second generation of immigrants, with Indian kids and other Asian dominance. That is why you have so many finance people and doctors from those countries. Their parents are not rich. They are immigrants.
In private you have dominance of white bread.

You are basing your data on one specific website that has been dedicated to abolishing grammar. I also don't support grammar schools because of the poor kids subjected to the rat race from the early start, the mental health challenges posed by over-ambitious parents, and the excuse for the gov to underfund those schools. But I don't believe that this particular website is exaggerating information and using data from specific years to prove its point.

Maybe I didn't express myself precisely enough- all grammar and Catholic schools are so competitive because they are driven by ambitious highly motivated immigrants who push their kids there. And it is not something typical to UK but many countries

On faith schools, I've shared articles that included links to data and research from several different sources including the Educational Policy Institute, the DfE and the Sutton Trust. Quite underhand to suggest otherwise.

Do you have issues with the quality of the data, only who published it? Parliament also has data, though theirs is on all faith schools not only those that are faith selective - you'll note that I've talked about the impact of faith admissions and the impact on pupil demographics of selection based on religious observance, which as you say is wildly inconsistent. Where schools select, by faith or academic ability or house prices, it sifts out a disproportionate number of poorer students.

Can you explain why you think the data is flawed? And can you share the data you referred to?

The fact is that both academically and faith selective schools are also de facto socially selective. That is the point I have repeatedly made. All the other flummery around immigrant parents, church attendance, "openness" of some CofE schools, whatever, isn't relevant to that fact, which is based on actual evidence. If you've got evidence that provides a different picture then I'll be glad to see it and we can have a proper discussion.

On the "specific years" point - I also made it clear in the links I shared that this is nothing new. I can give you articles and papers going back to at least 2008 that paint a consistent picture if that would help? I'm not sure you'd do me the courtesy of reading them though.

>. All the other flummery around immigrant parents, church attendance, "openness" of some CofE schools, whatever, isn't relevant to that fact, which is based on actual evidence

The flummery can be checked by going to admission section of schools, checking with parents who have kids in schools. Very tangible evidence is needed to get to the catholic school. And check the same for CoE, far more relaxed in most cases. I happen to have a contact with many parents who have kids in faith schools also those organising last minute baptism and looking for a parish with most relaxed priest🙄 who will sign the document

About immigrant parents- even that flawed website has data for ESL kids. Go and look at Tiffin boys when they leave school. It is an open secret.

The flummery can be checked by going to admission section of schools, checking with parents who have kids in schools. Very tangible evidence is needed to get to the catholic school. And check the same for CoE, far more relaxed in most cases. I happen to have a contact with many parents who have kids in faith schools also those organising last minute baptism and looking for a parish with most relaxed priest🙄 who will sign the document.

OK, you go do that for every parent and every school in the country, let me know when you're done, and we'll see if it differs from the data from those who have already done that (at least on the actual data points, not the 'chat to all the parents'.) And we can see if it diverges from Parliament, the DfE, the Sutton Trust, the EPI or others. But if it's not comprehensive, it's conjecture, not data. You've made assertions you don't seem able to back up except for your own bubble of experience.

I'm aware of the broad difference in CofE admissions, including the 50% rule - I already acknowledged it. But it doesn't make any difference at all to the argument I was making, which is around faith selection, not faith schools. So again, it's flummery.

About immigrant parents- even that flawed website has data for ESL kids. Go and look at Tiffin boys when they leave school. It is an open secret.

My point around immigrant parents (I'm one) is that it has absolutely zero relevance to the point around underrepresentation of deprivation that originally contested. So I'm not sure why you raised it.

Oit of interest, which of the numerous websites I linked to are you referring to? And on what basis do you say the data is flawed?

Here's that EPI report, by the way, as the link within a linked document seems to have been foxing you. I look forward to your critique of their methodology.

>OK, you go do that for every parent and every school in the country,

No need for that lol. The faith schools have similar admission principles as a minimum that are established by a diocese. The form for the required catholic practice certificate is established at a diocese level and linked by the schools. These schools have only minor differences in admission: e.g if the baptism should be done in the first year of life or not. I honestly know many catholics as a one of them lol

>absolutely zero relevance to the point around underrepresentation of deprivation that originally contested

First generation immigrants are rarely affluent ( and I mean here my definition of affluence and not a house in London and a job as a manager). I would say that they are so motivated because of the deprivation they experienced. Again, trend. I am not talking about everybody

No need for that lol. The faith schools have similar admission principles as a minimum that are established by a diocese.

Ha, no, not for CofE schools! Just in our LA (all within the same diocese) the criteria vary hugely, from the proportion of kids, to how long the worship needs to have gone on and how often, and what other churches (individual) will be accepted, whether other Christian churchgoers will be in the priority group after the home church, whether attendees of other religions will be included....

The RC VC schools that can select up to 100% tend to be much more straightforward - Catholic or bust. But even then it varies from baptism to much more hoop-jumping. Looking locally - it varies a lot!

But still totally irrelevant to the outcome - the impact of faith admissions on the demographics of student populations.

Ditto on the immigrants question. Speculating about the demographics of ESL kids is entirely pointless when we have the actual deprivation statistics right there.

And we know that all forms of selection result in disproportionately well-off student populations.

Did you have any critiques to make about the EPI report and its analysis of social selection?

I am aware of the admission criteria of several Catholic schools - all require attendance to church ( priest certifcate) and baptism certificate. They sometimes ask for how long and when about those two. I have never heard of any other hoop- jumping and it would be quite enlightening what are those hoops? My son puts on the list two catholic schools. My friend's daughter Holy Cross, Ursulean and Philomenas... Then there is R.Challoner. All RC schools have the requirements as I listed and I am not aware of other " hoops".

As I mentioned CoE is even more relaxed and very much focused on catchment and " christian" fath of any denomination.

The impact on the schools have who lives in catchment and what are the house prices. But also ambition of the parents and the immigrants are hugely ambitious and as London is a multicultural melting pot, the competition in grammars are fierce. I cannot speak about deprivation and educational landscape in Lancashire or Cornwall as I don't live there.

The statement in that document sounds as if faith school was looking into parents' wallets upon admission. 🤣
Whereas in reality state Catholic schools admit basing on catchment ( listed parishes) , and in all cases baptism and certificate of Catholic practice from the priest. ( yeah there are few and far between that are selective with the exams but that is rare).
Then one may conclude from that EPI report that faith means affluence and that poor people do not go to church 😂. Then I go to church and see Polish, Etiopian, Irish, Italian immigrants in abundance and the whole EPI report conclusion sounds very obscure to me

As I mentioned CoE is even more relaxed and very much focused on catchment and " christian" fath of any denomination

You keep saying these things as if they're true and uncontested. They're not. All the Catholic admissions I've looked at are much broader (incl any Christian faith, any other ) than any of the local CofE near to us - it's partner church,

The impact on the schools have who lives in catchment and what are the house prices. But also ambition of the parents and the immigrants are hugely ambitious and as London is a multicultural melting pot, the competition in grammars are fierce. I cannot speak about deprivation and educational landscape in Lancashire or Cornwall as I don't live there.

Neither do I. And neither of us lives in a fully grammar area. But luckily we have data, so we don't have to rely our own social bubbles in the hopes that that they apply more broadly. So we are able to understand the impacts of selection on school demographics.

I'm still unclear why you're talking about immigrants so much. How is it relevant to underrepresentation of the poorest children in grammar and faith selective schools?

Are there any C of E secondary schools in Kingston borough?

The statement in that document sounds as if faith school was looking into parents' wallets upon admission.

Which statement? It has several. It's a relatively detailed document.

Then one may conclude from that EPI report that faith means affluence and that poor people do not go to church 😂.

Only if you persist in thinking in absolutes rather than proportionality. Are there poor people in faith schools, or church congregations? Of course. Are there proportionally fewer working-class people attending church than in the surrounding populations? Also yes.

I suspect your bubble is such that what you think of as poverty is not actually representative of the true picture of poverty in this country. You seem reluctant to challenge your individual experience with the reality of the broader picture - that grammars and faith schools take fewer children on free school meals than would be representative.

And as a tip on us immigrants and our kids - we're all quite different, cover all socioeconomic bands and are motivated by all kids of stuff.

(And as that shows it's a mixed picture - as I've said previously, the Roman Catholic Church and its schools are closer to representative than Anglican churches; the attraction of non-Anglican Protestant churches to some deprived groups, particularly in urban areas, tends to screw them on school admissions relative to those who dutifully show up, get their name ticked off once a fortnight for one/two years in the "right" church for their chosen school, and are never seen there again.)

Not yet. One is being built I believe. Why?

Kingston Church of England Secondary School - new one and then in nearby Sunbury

>I suspect your bubble is such that what you think of as poverty is not actually representative of the true picture of poverty in this country.

I think that you don't know me and who I am. Why are you conjugating the words " deprived" and " poverty" all the time?!

>Are there poor people in faith schools, or church congregations? Of course. Are there proportionally fewerworking-class people attending church than in the surrounding populations?Also yes.

Several posts above you were saying something opposite. Decide then if there are poorer or richer in Catholic schools.
It must be that rich Poles that mostly arrived here in 2004 who don't need free meals 😂 You make me laugh.

>And as a tip on us immigrants and our kids - we're all quite different, cover all socioeconomic bands and are motivated by all kids of stuff.

So what? That doesn't change the fact that Catholic churches are mostly full of first and second generation of immigrants and their children go to Catholic schools.

Also, there are thousands of Indian doctors in Uk who studied hard to get to grammar schools. There are trends. Clearly visible trends. They may slightly vary by the location but only just.

I have still not heard which CoE school have stricter rules of admission than Catholic schools.

It is exactly the same in RC schools.