Grammar schooling and the local community

[Cantdohair]

My son is just entering Yr 6 at primary school. We live in a large village in a relatively affluent area with both a primary and secondary school in walking distance.

A big part of the reason we moved here was to be part of a community and so far that has very much been the case. My son has really lucked out with his year group and they are a really strong group of friends who he could theoretically stay with through secondary school. They could all walk in together etc....it all looked very idyllic in my head! (Although I do recognise friendships change a lot at secondary level and they make new friends etc).

Unfortunately I underestimated the grammar school impact. It varies year to year but it looks as though all of his close friends bar one will sitting their 11+. They have all been tutored for some time, are bright, and stand a very good chance of passing. My son is aware of this but is not sitting it himself - this was a joint decision and we don't feel grammar school is right for him. I must admit though, I had underestimated how many of his friends would be sitting it. With the exam in a few weeks we are at peak 11+ fervour amongst parents and peers and it is really starting to bother me.

There is just so much snobbery about it and I just feel really sad that my son will miss out on the secondary school experience I thought he would have within the village that we live. The secondary school in the village is a good school, the results aren't amazing but I suspect this is more the grammar impact rather than the teaching and it has a lovely feel and a great pastoral side. I know its idealistic but it would just be so nice if they could all just go to the same school. I'm sure my son will be fine - he is far less bothered than me (eye roll) - I just feel sad about the whole system and what feels like a lack of loyalty to each other and the community. I'm not sure what I'm looking for really - just some reassurance that I am not crazy for feeling this way!

A lot of parents who prefer grammar school care about the selective/superselective part. I don't think they care about underfunded or lack or resource of the school. Most are middle classes who would top up by continuing tutoring outside the school for their kids.

Sorry, I know this is going to make me deeply unpopular on here but I'm going to say it anyway. I don't care so much about the funding, or how lovely the school building is. I want my bright and motivated DD to attend a school where she is not going to have to deal with constant disruption/ very difficult children like I did in a comp 20 years ago. Being bright in many comps is hell on earth and I would have loved the opportunity to attend somewhere without all the shitty behaviour and where difficult children's needs were continually prioritised.

Before I get jumped on, I realise not all comps are like that but it was my experience (in a completely non selective area) and what many of them are like round here. Those comps that are outstanding are selection by house price with lots of poorer / less privileged families not getting in anyway- out of interest, how would folks suggest dealing with that? Good comps are in no way equal access / fair entry atm.

My DD starts grammar school tomorrow. She had no private tutor and completed x3 CGP books at home before passing the 11+. I'm thrilled for her and whilst I know nothing is perfect she's really happy to be studying with other motivated kids.

For full disclosure I grew up in one of the poorest parts of the UK in a working class household, so not middle class at all.

out of interest, how would folks suggest dealing with that? Good comps are in no way equal access / fair entry atm.

You need to realise that with Grammar school in place, it make the situation worse.

That may be, yet I grew up in an area with no grammar schools at all there were still loads of shitty comps and a couple of 'golden prize' comps that all the middle classes / more affluent monopolised for their kids via selection by postcode. How would this specifically be addressed?

I think your definition of affluence might be slightly different to how many people think about affluence.

For example, we're affluent. We both make well above the national average salaries, we own 80% of our SW London home with enough bedrooms, we have job security and multiple foreign holidays a year, our kids do numerous expensive out of school activities, and we look forward to a fairly comfortable retirement when it comes.

However, we couldn't comfortably afford private school for two children. So we didn't go down that path in the end, despite tutoring and offers.

Plenty of parents like us who'd leap to get their kids into Tiffin but for whom KGS, Hampton and the like are just that tiny bit too far out of reach. And probably quite a few who could just afford the indies with big sacrifices but for whom the grammars are a massive relief if they get their kids in.

It's really thorny issue but I've seen a few potential solutions that have merit, such as lotteries within a broad catchment,

Step one would be to abolish faith selection as it just exacerbates the house price issues by concentrating those who can buy/rent their way into a good school into smaller areas/chasing fewer places. And the faith places are taken by disproportionately better-off families as well.

I quite like the idea of allocation with demographic banding, and total standardisation of the admissions code.

The other way is to go down a path much more similar to the Australian or American systems, with any kid in catchment getting a place, but it would need a radical rethink of school funding and a system where LAs could instruct any school, not just LA schools, to expand.

a couple of 'golden prize' comps that all the middle classes / more affluent monopolised for their kids via selection by postcode.

By investing more funding support to postcode area comprehensive school required most.

@Madrescuechicken You're experience is 20 years old, remember. I agree there are some crap schools. But not as many as Mumsnet seems to think!

And yes, there is some postcodery too. But, once again, I suspect, not as much as some people think?

How would I solve the problem? Well, in my ideal world, I'd have a complete reorganisation of school admissions and introduce a form of fair banding. I'd also boost funding for schools by removing charitable status from private schools (yes, that old chestnut!) and introducing a hypothecated tax on high earners. Aren't you glad I'm never going to be in charge!

😆 yes I am!! No, in all seriousness I'd be very interested to know if you live in a highly deprived area as my own experience, that of family members and friends children's at local rough comps has been dire, including physical assault and daily verbal lashings directed at geeks / anyone not totally disinterested in school. I find those who live in nicer areas have much better experiences of comps (unsurprisingly), but I may be completely wrong about your personal situation (apologies if so).

OP if you are still reading - sadly choice of any kind, grammar schools, faith schools, private schools with non-ruinous fees/bursaries etc will mean you don’t get primaries all feeding to particular secondary schools and friendships groups remaining fixed from infants to A levels.

even comp systems, many parents will choose a different school than the nearest, because they feel it will fit their child better (smaller, or larger with more clubs/sports or more music focus, or SEN provision etc)

Some sorts of choice are more political than others, some will give a better chance of good GCSEs, some won’t make a massive difference to grades, but parents feel their child will have a happier school experience, even if the only measure many feel is important (GCSE results) won’t show a difference.

given you’ve not looked at the grammar or thought about any other school than the one walking distance to your house, it could be you are making assumptions about why parents aren’t choosing your local school that aren’t correct. You also need to prepare for parents who’s dcs don’t pass the 11+ (or even enter it) still not choosing that school.

DD will be doing the 11+ this week but I’m not confident she’ll pass, either way, she’s not going to the closest school to our house.

@Madrescuechicken I do live in a nice area. But we are very close to an area of significant social deprivation and my ds went to a school that had around 40% FSM.

Kate, it is not so simple. The special need kids receive additional funding for each kid on the top of the state funding per pupil. Also the SEND department receives some general funding. Grammar schools receive around £1k less per pupul than state.

Grammar schools also have plenty of absolutely ingenious children with ASD that is special needs kids. They particularly excel at quantitative subject beyond what other kids could accomplish.
Yes, grammar schools need money. Just look at the state of premises at Tiffin Boys. That is why grammar schools turn in status into volutary aided academies to be able to ask for money.

"Grammar schools also have plenty of absolutely ingenious children with ASD that is special needs kids."

But SIGNIFICANTLY fewer than non-grammar schools.

>I think your definition of affluence might be slightly different to how many people think about affluence.

For example, we're affluent. We both make well above the national average salaries, we own 80% of our SW London home with enough bedrooms, we have job security and multiple foreign holidays a year, our kids do numerous expensive out of school activities, and we look forward to a fairly comfortable retirement when it comes.

Hmm you have a very optimistic perspective on the definition of the word " affluence" .I don't have mortgage and own my house and I earn double national average but I would never consider myself an affluent person lol. Middle class as all of my neighbours.The private school fees are £27-30k pa and imagine you have two kids. Those who can afford it are affluent.

>However, we couldn't comfortably afford private school for two children. So we didn't go down that path in the end, despite tutoring and offers.

Plenty of parents like us who'd leap to get their kids into Tiffin but for whom KGS, Hampton and the like are just that tiny bit too far out of reach. And probably quite a few who could just afford the indies with big sacrifices but for whom the grammars are a massive relief if they get their kids in.
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Yes, they cannot afford because they are not affluent but they are middle class. Affluent is less than 10 percent of the society. They can afford private schools and it is not me and not you. We are middle class- not affluent

Since when has "affluent" been a social class?

That is truth. You are correct. But SEN provision is not related to the fact that grammar school receive less money per head than state comprehensiive. . School receives money for SEN purposes and not to be spend on other things. It is not one lump sum per schol but for a specific reason and needs of particular pupils.

https://fullfact.org/education/are-grammar-schools-facing-crisis-funding/

Social class is modern times is associated with the income, wealth. This is not XIX century. In the study of economics the authors use the word " middle class" when refering to the majority of professionals in the society.

The dictionary says:

I suspect if i went round the vast majority of the country, with a household income that is at or pretty close to the top decile, a mostly paid off house worth a multiple of the average house price, multiple holidays a year and kids in all kinds of activities, and tried to claim we weren't affluent, they'd rightly laugh in my face.

It might not be HMRC definition of affluence (which is much higher), but we're better off than the vast majority. And it's silly to pretend that there aren't a lot of families like mine, in relative affluence but for whom private education only only very marginally affordable and for whom grammar is preferable to private if both are available.

It's also worth remembering that the profile of who can afford private school has changed massively in the last couple of decades.

Anyway, all are a massive thread derail.

They aren't too wise parents then, are they?
Fierce competition among kids is not everything and often it is even damaging to the kids' mental health. Tutoring is not a fix for everything

I can't tell they are wise parent or not. Judging by the number of quotes on "it is essential a private school but free" in MN there are a lot of them thinking like that.

You are diplomatic ;)

Grammar schools are practically private schools at all there are huge differences between them

The only similarity is selective exam minus NVR. Private schools have a lot of attention to pupils, pastoral care and handling bullying because the parents are the clients. Private schools have a lot of interesting ways how they teach subjects e.g In the local selective private the kids build a car in collaboration with one of the car producers. I cannot imagine how they could afford that in grammar.