Grammar schooling and the local community

[Cantdohair]

My son is just entering Yr 6 at primary school. We live in a large village in a relatively affluent area with both a primary and secondary school in walking distance.

A big part of the reason we moved here was to be part of a community and so far that has very much been the case. My son has really lucked out with his year group and they are a really strong group of friends who he could theoretically stay with through secondary school. They could all walk in together etc....it all looked very idyllic in my head! (Although I do recognise friendships change a lot at secondary level and they make new friends etc).

Unfortunately I underestimated the grammar school impact. It varies year to year but it looks as though all of his close friends bar one will sitting their 11+. They have all been tutored for some time, are bright, and stand a very good chance of passing. My son is aware of this but is not sitting it himself - this was a joint decision and we don't feel grammar school is right for him. I must admit though, I had underestimated how many of his friends would be sitting it. With the exam in a few weeks we are at peak 11+ fervour amongst parents and peers and it is really starting to bother me.

There is just so much snobbery about it and I just feel really sad that my son will miss out on the secondary school experience I thought he would have within the village that we live. The secondary school in the village is a good school, the results aren't amazing but I suspect this is more the grammar impact rather than the teaching and it has a lovely feel and a great pastoral side. I know its idealistic but it would just be so nice if they could all just go to the same school. I'm sure my son will be fine - he is far less bothered than me (eye roll) - I just feel sad about the whole system and what feels like a lack of loyalty to each other and the community. I'm not sure what I'm looking for really - just some reassurance that I am not crazy for feeling this way!

The other similarity is a very large degree of social selection.

People choose both grammars and indies in part to avoid certain demographics where disruption, poor behaviour and the 'element they don't want their kids associating with' are more prevalent.

People choose both grammars and indies in part to avoid certain demographics where disruption, poor behaviour and the 'element they don't want their kids associating with' are more prevalent.

Hmmm... I'm sure no one sending their kid to a comprehensive thinks of any of those factors? 😆 I'm sure they're all very happy for Tabitha or Tarquin to attend a rough comp without giving it a second thought, because, you know, social inclusion and all that... honestly, pretty much everyone wants their kid to attend the best school they possibly can. There are many comps round here (inner city Northern England) that I don't think any of you would want your child to attend given any other choice. It's amazing how fast virtue signalling goes out the window when you're staring the reality of some of these schools in the eye.

In a lot of places, the grammar school system still gives opportunities to kids with lower earning parents.

I have 2 DC at schools in the same London borough - the FSM rate at the DC1s grammar is well under 10%, the rate at DC2s comp is over 30%. The grammar system is flawed in equality aspects.

you would want your child to attend given any other choice

When the choice is only available to thosenwho are more well off, especially using state resource, it makes the situation worse for sure.

In north England , Manchester is a typical example, Trafford has a few grammar schools which makes more middle class move to that area for grammar school initially, then also comprehensive schools years later. Those who lose out are the other area of the city. If there are no grammar school in the first place, I am sure the situation will be very different.

"It's amazing how fast virtue signalling goes out the window when you're staring the reality of some of these schools in the eye."
Speak, as they say, for yourself.

The grammars in Trafford are a prime example of the inequality entrenched in the whole system.

I haven’t read the thread but I agree OP, we moved out of Trafford for this reason. 20/24 kids in my DC’s class are going to the same secondary.

Jesus, what's with all the straw man arguments and distortions on this thread?

I literally never suggested that. The part of my post you quoted had context, which was the post it was responding to. That post suggested there was only one point of similarity between private and grammar parents. I posited another.

And it's the same for parents who can access faith admissions, and the same as house price selection. It's a flawed system and any form of selection criteria select out the most deprived pupils, generally.

But let's not kid ourselves that they're on the same scale. When you compare pupil intakes to the demographics of their nominal catchments, and even up to borough level, grammar schools select out far more deprived kids (using FSM as a proxy for deprivation) than faith admissions; faith admissions in turn select out more deprived kids than house prices (though house prices already distort the demographics, particularly for primaries; still even at a borough level the difference is less marked than faith and grammars).

Whats your motivation in inventing something that wasn't said or even slightly implied? I'm genuinely curious what you get out of it.

@Cantdohair I totally hear & get it.
Grammar school areas are v different to non.
Even then private schools can have same effect.
My DS is going high with loads of his mates but his besties are going private

This with bells on. Trafford has an industry of tutors, money drives results and kids travel miles to schools

The problem is that disruptional behaviour does not necessarily go along with aptitude at this age yet. Grammars are not looking into behavioural aspects upon admission. It is purely exam-based. The private schools mostly do, and they make an effort to write to the primary headmaster to get references for a kid. e.g.There is a boy at our school who is going to take grammar exams. He is brill at maths, yet at the same time is probably the most arrogant kid in the entire school.

strange notion. I don't think anybody speaks here on behalf of anybody else.

> I'm sure no one sending their kid to a comprehensive thinks of any of those factors?

Plenty of parents as a matter of fact if you read the pages of mumsnet. Parents try to find out the percentage of exclusion from school, bullying, even drive near school to look at the kids that attend school.

@ThingsWillWorkOut "strange notion. I don't think anybody speaks here on behalf of anybody else."

Well, the people saying that anyone intending to use their local school is "virtue signalling" and will change their minds kind of are!

Don't forget that in grammar areas there is no such thing as a comprehensive - comprehensive schools by definition include everyone, but if the grammar skims off the brightest, the other schools in the area would be more like a secondary modern, with most of the ability range but very few at the top end. Depends how many grammar schools there are in the area. @Cantdohair why do you say 'grammar isn't for him'?

Yep, let's tell ourselves that private and grammar selection tests are purely about aptitude, and don't have a very strong element of social selection, and there aren't massively strong links between deprivation and behaviour from early primary.

Any form of selection disproportionately excludes the most deprived kids, often from more chaotic households where behaviour is likely to be more challenging. Outside the private sector, grammars are the worst for this social selection, followed by faith schools.

It remains still her observation of others and therefore her opinion about others.

I think the grammar system is massively unfair, all children should have the access to that quality of education. Our local grammars are excellent schools.
However, because I won't be depriving my daughter of the advantage it provides just to make a point, she goes to the grammar. She has lots of friends from primary who all go to different school but they are still close.

>all children should have access to that quality of education

Grammar schools have not got any better quality of education. Grammar are not private schools nor could be compared. The only thing in common is the selective entry exams Not all of those schools are marked as Outstanding. Recently two grammar local to me were downgraded to Good from Outstanding because of mediocre teaching. Grammars are receiving less money per head, per pupil and no, number of SEN has nothing to do with it as this is separate funding.

I think the grammar system is massively unfair, all children should have the access to that quality of education. Our local grammars are excellent schools

There is no evidence to suggest that the state grammar schools provide better education. There is evidence to suggest the grammar schools create negative impact on the quality and diversity of the state schools. Your local schools are excellent might be your perception of it being a grammar schools, or might be it is just excellent schools as other state funded comprehension schools.

@JassyRadlett There is some correlation of super selective private and behaviour because as I said they write to the headmaster and request info about behaviour.

But then again there is a range of secondary private schools which made a business entirely basing on drop outs from other schools. Kids that were excluded or cause trouble etc.

As I mention, there is olenty of arrogant naughty teens in grammars. Bullying also exist in grammars.

The difference between private and comprehensive is based purely on the financial status and in superselective private also on aptitude.
There are many parents who cannot afford tutoring and prepared their kids for grammar themselves. Many use Atom Learning online.

Yes, grammars are selective and therefore create often toxic competitive " to die for" environment. They do impact on state schools.

Not sure about faith schools. These have nothing to do with financial status or aptitude.

@ThingsWillWorkOut where I am the local grammar schools are far better than the comprehensives actually.

I didn't say anything about funding or SEN?!

The ofsted reposts, exam results and anecdotal evidence all support that the local grammars are excellent, no matter how much people on here want to believe otherwise! 😂

Has anybody said that most grammar schools aren't excellent?

Of course exam results are supposed to be good if it select student based on 11+ exam. The point is these students will be as good as in comprehensive schools or even better.

You keep talking in absolutes rather than trends. No one is saying that there is no poor behaviour in grammars, or private schools. What I am saying is that there is a significant degree of social selection that goes hand in glove with grammars (and other forms of selection to varying degrees) and in particular selecting out those social demographics more strongly associated with poor behaviour.

This is all right there in the pupil statistics, when you look at the demographic makeup of the school versus both nominal catchments and local authority/borough. The arguments about being able to afford tutoring, whether parents have the capability to tutor themselves, etc are a bit irrelevant to the question - the outcomes are what matters, and the outcomes are there in the data and there has been study after study on the impacts of selection by different means on the demographic makeup of schools.

It's nonsense to say that faith schools have nothing to do with financial status, by the way. Just like grammars, the process of selection creates a cohort that are disproportionately well off. It's financial and social selection by the back door.