Grammar schooling and the local community

[Cantdohair]

My son is just entering Yr 6 at primary school. We live in a large village in a relatively affluent area with both a primary and secondary school in walking distance.

A big part of the reason we moved here was to be part of a community and so far that has very much been the case. My son has really lucked out with his year group and they are a really strong group of friends who he could theoretically stay with through secondary school. They could all walk in together etc....it all looked very idyllic in my head! (Although I do recognise friendships change a lot at secondary level and they make new friends etc).

Unfortunately I underestimated the grammar school impact. It varies year to year but it looks as though all of his close friends bar one will sitting their 11+. They have all been tutored for some time, are bright, and stand a very good chance of passing. My son is aware of this but is not sitting it himself - this was a joint decision and we don't feel grammar school is right for him. I must admit though, I had underestimated how many of his friends would be sitting it. With the exam in a few weeks we are at peak 11+ fervour amongst parents and peers and it is really starting to bother me.

There is just so much snobbery about it and I just feel really sad that my son will miss out on the secondary school experience I thought he would have within the village that we live. The secondary school in the village is a good school, the results aren't amazing but I suspect this is more the grammar impact rather than the teaching and it has a lovely feel and a great pastoral side. I know its idealistic but it would just be so nice if they could all just go to the same school. I'm sure my son will be fine - he is far less bothered than me (eye roll) - I just feel sad about the whole system and what feels like a lack of loyalty to each other and the community. I'm not sure what I'm looking for really - just some reassurance that I am not crazy for feeling this way!

Totally agree - faith selection massively distorts catchments (and in primary in particular often displaces local kids to more distant schools.)

Like grammars, faith selection creams off a significant proportion of committed, organised parents.

Some parents think Grammar school is the their version of private but free, what they really meant private is the selective element of the School, they won't care the funding difference between private and state sector, teaching quality nor extracurriculum and etc.

It's not a given that they will all go off to the grammar school. My two did pass their 11+ but the oldest didn't like the school and ended up changing to a local non grammar in Y8. Two of his friends switched as well at the same time, and a couple from his primary school passed but decided not to go to a grammar school at all. Our youngest is happy there but two of his friends also moved.

NB both my boys have made great new friendship groups outside of primary too. I'd say that their friends are both about 50/50 primary/secondary.

Ok.. I know few kids at Tiffin and their mums through activity after school. None of them went to private school. All went to state schools. Most of the kids who went to prep goes to LEH, Kingston Grammar, Hampton Boys and few more schools that offer much more than Tiffin school in terms of pastoral care, focus on a specific child and so on. Here on this side of the river it is simply a different type of family. Tiffin school is a target for less affluent families who cannot afford private. And also if you look at leaver destinations web pages at primary schools and preps, postcodes of those accepted at Tiffin, it becomes obvious that most of kids are from specific ethnic groups and specific state schools.

Clearly very different - though the figures from kids who have come via preps is from research not anecdote. I'll dig it out in a minute.

I'm not making any statements about where the majority of prep pupils go - I haven't suggested that most don't go on to other independents. Simply observing that a decent proportion of the superselective intake comes from preps.

But yes, in my limited group I know quite a few Tiffin/independent school split families. I suspect we are slightly less affluent and therefore if Tiffin is on the table then it will be taken, more people paying for independent with help from grandparents or putting it on the mortgage.

>Simply observing that a decent proportion of the superselective intake comes from preps

Yes, superselective privates

Certainly. And superselective grammars.

Where did you find the postcode data for Tiffin? Interested in seeing nominally how many kids might come our way without Tiffin and test my assumptions a bit.

postcodes of those accepted at Tiffin, it becomes obvious that most of kids are from specific ethnic groups and specific state schools.

To some extent this is true
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/postcode_just_first_part_of_the#incoming-2177662

Exactly. This is the website where I foundnit and copy pasted it here before

Tiffins has one of the strictest catchment though and inner area and outer area and if you don’t live in one think again. Does cover Richmond abd Epsom but we are still fairly close

Sutton Grammars have a bigger inner catchment then an out of catchment score and are easier move to than Tiffin

@JassyRadlett just look in the admission criteria they set it out. It is mainly KT 1-10, 12, 13, 15, 17 and 19 and TW 1-17 with SW13-20 W 3 4 5 7 13 SM4 abd CR4

then Kingston wards in inner area

My son attended 11+ tutoring in Kingston. Each year the tutor has approx 27-30 kids. She is tutoring for 11+ for grammars as well as private schools. Then there is another writing class with another tutor, Tiffin graduate dedicated purely for writing skills. We, the parents ask the tutors questions e.g. like this one: how many kids from private primaries go to.grammar schools . Their perception is as I said, that kids from prep schools mostly aim at superselective private that offer much better quality of teaching and equal or often better exam results. The swap from primary private to state grammar is less frequent simply because parents got used to have higher expectations from the schools after prep school than what grammar can offer. This is with respect to teachers engagement, quality of teaching, attention to particular pupils, teacher to student ratio, extracurricular activities, pastoral care, facilities etc- all of that is much better at superselective privates.
Tutoring 11+ cost is approx £3-4kpa. Many parents who cannot afford private school fees that cost circa £27-40k pa still can afford 11+ tutoring - they send children to grammar schools or try. Here were I live that ethos of superselective grammar placement is particularly visible among Indian and other Asian families and the ethnic representation of pupils at Tiffins reflects it.

Thsnks all - my misunderstanding, from previous posts I thought there was more granular data particularly on distribution across postcodes rather than, as you say, just the list of postcodes within the priority area.

@ThingsWillWorkOut we still seem to be talking at cross purposes - I've never suggested that the majority of prep ipils won't stay in the private sector. But even a very small minority or the prep population can make a sizeable minority of the handful of schools we're talking about - and looking at the preps in the priority areas who do list the Tiffins or the Sutton grammars as leavers destinations, there does still seem to be that minority who go down that path.

I've been through the Tiffin process too, never fear. Different tutors will have different perceptions. But thanks for the detailed explanation of how tutoring works.

Jassy, I am unsure where you read how tutoring works as I have not been addressing it. I have mentioned the observation of tutors specialising in placement in Kingston Grammar. Of course that at Tiffin end up also some kids from prep schools but this is not the main feeder type of school. And all that talk that to Grammar are going children from the affluent famillies hardly makes sense as they head for suprrselective private.

So you're saying that the Tiffins aren't made up of children from affluent families? Yeah, ok.

>misunderstanding, from previous posts I thought there was more granular data particularly on distribution across postcodes rather than, as you say, just the list of postcodes within the priority area.

You misunderstood then what it is then. It is showing you distribution across the postcodes. It lists the postcode of each girl who got in that particular year. If two girls from the same postcode got in then the same postcode will be listed twice. It is a list from inner and designated area. I am not sure what you mean by priority area as at Tiffin girls they use two areas: the inner one in the heart of Kingston, and designated area that streches wider. These are postcodes from both. Tiffin girls cannot accept anybody outside these areas.

@ThingsWillWorkOut "And all that talk that to Grammar are going children from the affluent famillies hardly makes sense as they head for suprrselective"
Why not?

Ah super, my 4am brain wasn't working then. I'll have a look at the data later. Thanks for clarifying!

I don't think any of this has altered the idea that there is a significant difference in the impact on local schools in areas that are fully grammar, where up to 25% are diverted from the non-selective sector (though I accept some of these would have gone private) where you are essentially missing at least a full top set, than in the Kingston/Sutton grammar areas where none of the schools are likely to be missing more than a handful of kids who would otherwise have gone there - as some would be private and more are from out of the borough.

Your points were fine and valid OP. It completely makes sense x

I'm just yearning for a simpler, less competitive life where my son can walk to his local secondary school with the other boys in the village.

And then ? Would such a secondary experience prepare him for the world of work ? Would it stretch him academically if that is appropriate? It is hard to say good bye to the carefree days of primary school....but it is necessary.

DS got a 6, 4 in English and I think it was 6 in history. He didn't have a tough time, he had support in English that I doubt he would have got in the comp.

>don't think any of this has altered the idea that there is a significant difference in the impact on local schools in areas that are fully grammar, where up to 25% are diverted from the non-selective sector (though I accept some of these would have gone private) where you are essentially missing at least a full top set, than in the Kingston/Sutton grammar areas where none of the schools are likely to be missing more than a handful of kids who would otherwise have gone there - as some would be private and more are from out of the borough.

Yes, that is correct, it does impact in the areas where there is less schools and population. In London is a unique situation where there is many many secondary schools and here in Kingston and Richmond nearly all are excellent

As I have mentioned before, afflient people can afford superselective private schools that have much better facilities, pastoral care, teaching than grammars. Grammars are underfunded, more underfunded than any comprehensive.

"Grammars are underfunded, more underfunded than any comprehensive."

Because-frankly-they don't need the money. Well, obviously they do- all state schools do. But they have very, very few expensive pupils. That's why they get less funding.