Grammar schooling and the local community

[Cantdohair]

My son is just entering Yr 6 at primary school. We live in a large village in a relatively affluent area with both a primary and secondary school in walking distance.

A big part of the reason we moved here was to be part of a community and so far that has very much been the case. My son has really lucked out with his year group and they are a really strong group of friends who he could theoretically stay with through secondary school. They could all walk in together etc....it all looked very idyllic in my head! (Although I do recognise friendships change a lot at secondary level and they make new friends etc).

Unfortunately I underestimated the grammar school impact. It varies year to year but it looks as though all of his close friends bar one will sitting their 11+. They have all been tutored for some time, are bright, and stand a very good chance of passing. My son is aware of this but is not sitting it himself - this was a joint decision and we don't feel grammar school is right for him. I must admit though, I had underestimated how many of his friends would be sitting it. With the exam in a few weeks we are at peak 11+ fervour amongst parents and peers and it is really starting to bother me.

There is just so much snobbery about it and I just feel really sad that my son will miss out on the secondary school experience I thought he would have within the village that we live. The secondary school in the village is a good school, the results aren't amazing but I suspect this is more the grammar impact rather than the teaching and it has a lovely feel and a great pastoral side. I know its idealistic but it would just be so nice if they could all just go to the same school. I'm sure my son will be fine - he is far less bothered than me (eye roll) - I just feel sad about the whole system and what feels like a lack of loyalty to each other and the community. I'm not sure what I'm looking for really - just some reassurance that I am not crazy for feeling this way!

We're not in a small city, not a village, but I moved DD(16) in year 3.

She is still in touch with a few of her infant school friends (probably because us parents kept our own friendships up). The "old gang of 4 or 5" still sometimes meet up because they live so close to each other.

Friendship groups/dynamics change a lot in those early teen years and I think the kids all found it helpful to have those "fallback friends".

I wouldn't worry.

I grew up in a large village that was very nice with a perfectly serviceable secondary school. I went to the primary walking distance from my house then walked with most of the same children to secondary. I went away for uni then got a job in another city, but old classmates who didn’t, are still in the friendship groups that were decided by their reception teacher’s seating plan- I’m not convinced that staying insulated and “safe” in old friendship groups is the best.

not all your ds’s friends will pass the 11+, he’ll be put in groups with kids from other villages /primary schools and the lack of his current group will do him the power of good long term.

Also for the local school, have you checked its progress 8? That’s based on the year 6 SATs to gcse results, gives you a good idea if the “not great” results is because they don’t have the brightest kids, or because of the teaching.

Progress 8 is a biased and misleading measurement for both grammar and deprived comprehension schools.

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/how-progress-8-disguises-grammar-school-pupils-true-attainment/

The basic amount per head is the same for all types if school - grammar, ‘other school in selective area’, true comprehensive.

The reason that ‘average amount per pupil attending’ is lower for grammar schools is because, due to their selective nature, they take a much smaller number of children with high levels of SEN (for whom some additional funding is provided) children from deprived backgrounds (who attract pupil premium payments) than non-selective schools serving the same area.

Non-selective schools have higher costs, due to having to have staff and expertise and equipment to meet the much more varied needs - whether SEN or linked to deprivation - than their equivalent selective schools.

Grammar schools COULD have the same funding as an equivalent comprehensive IF they took the average number of high needs SEN and Pupil Premium children for the area they served. But they don’t.

It’s probably also worth saying that grammar schools are also likely, on average, to have more involved and more economically successful parents and alumni, and thus be able to raise more funds via PTA-type events or alumni appeals for ‘nice to have’ items. A small number also still have historic endowments.

Overall, therefore, their raw ‘income per head’ might be lower than a neighbouring non-selective school, but their costs are lower and their ability to raise other funds are, on average, slightly higher.

Sorry, I should correct the basic amount per pupil is the same for each pupil in the sane area - despite work to reduce the worst impacts of the funding formula, amounts per pupil do vary across the country.

(edited for typos)

I completely understand. I went to a grammar that completely divided the town it was in. There are lots of grammars where we love now & the area is larger so its not such a sharp split but it is divisive & attracts sharp elbowed parents who game the system. One of the very best schools in the area is a secondary modern. It sends kids to RG universities every year & supports the less academic to fulfil their potential in all sorts of ways. Its a shocking system & there is no good evidence that grammars help the less well off, whatever those invested in it try to tell themselves. So, hopefully your child's friend group will say strong and his school is the best for him.

You sound like you're describing our village! Our experience of the parents who push their children into the grammars (split boys/girls) is somewhat negative. The parents who were obsessed about getting their kids into the grammar schools were on the whole rather unpleasant entitled individuals and their children sadly, although unsurprisingly followed suit.

We won't be encouraging our DC to apply for the grammars, despite her being more than capable of passing the 11 plus. If she does however express an interest, we will support her either way.

I do believe that the choice should be your sons, after all, he can always move back from the grammar to the local school should he wish, but he can't do the other way round.

The reason that ‘average amount per pupil attending’ is lower for grammar schools is because, due to their selective nature, they take a much smaller number of children with high levels of SEN (for whom some additional funding is provided) children from deprived backgrounds (who attract pupil premium payments) than non-selective schools serving the same area.

Not just that, the government allocate certain funding based on "prior attainment" , so school will less prior attainment will have more funding, so by definition grammar school will have less funding per head even take away the PP and SEN funding allocations.

Which requires more resource? Teaching a wide range of attainment, including the very lowest, or teaching a narrow selected range of attainment?

The OP highlights one of the many things wrong with the grammar school system. Particularly the two tier system that exists in some counties. It's invidious, devisive and just plain wrong.

My experience is that what the grammars do have is incredibly motivated ( largely professional middle class) parents, an impressively efficient pta and huge amount of voluntary funding.

I seriously doubt the PTA donation difference can make up the £1000+ per head annual difference.

Anyway, sorry to derail OP's question, you YANBU, people judge others, you can think other parents disloyal and not integrates the community part on the schooling. Just like other parents will judge you not priority your DCs academic by not taking elevenplusexams. Some parents who passed the test will even judge those who doesn't passed or even attempt not have the academic standard to attend Grammar and thus has a less bright future. Rightly or wrongly it is what it is.

@Pinkback at my DC’s grammar the sixth form block and the sports hall have been built in recent years and funded by parental and former student donations. Like most parents at the school we also make a monthly payment to the school. I don’t think they are particularly struggling due to lack of funding.

" Like most parents at the school we also make a monthly payment to the school."
Yet ANOTHER reason grammar schools are socially divisive.

@CurlewKate my friends DCs go to a Catholic comp (our second choice school) and they do the same.

Makes me think of one of the high performing catholic grammar school my friends DD went to, was in the news a few years ago, before the further budget cut.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/mar/08/grammar-school-deficit-st-michaels-barnet

Parents do it because - as previous posters have pointed out - they receive very limited funding.

It's hopelessly naive to think that there isn't a two tier system in non-grammar counties - as has been discussed at length on here - house prices in areas with secondary schools that get great results are stratospheric.

In a lot of places, the grammar school system still gives opportunities to kids with lower earning parents.

Great schools in non-selective areas are stuffed with middle class kids whose parents can afford to pay £££ to get into catchment.

@Pinkback the Catholic school I refer to is not a grammar, it’s a comp.

In a lot of places, the grammar school system still gives opportunities to kids with lower earning parents.

It is a joke, do you know what is the number of grammar schools in this country that have the percentage of Free School Meal given to students higher than the national average?

@Dibblydoodahdah I'm just responding that the representativeness of your example, I know a lot of comp has great facilities and shinny classrooms and regular donations too. But even a Religious Grammar can be in struggle. The fact is that on average they are less funded by the state.

Absolutely no reason why these children can’t maintain a friendship just because they go to different secondary schools . It’s actually unusual for children to stay in the same friendship groups at secondary even if they move up with a large group .

I live in an area where there are lots of grammars. Out of 60 in dc year about 45 went to a grammar. I went to grammar and it was in one of the most deprived areas of UK, with large FSM (like 70%). Dc goes to grammar and FSM is about 20%. They ask for a voluntary parental contribution per month (£40). There are 1600 pupils so if 75% paid that's about £570k per year. That probably makes up any shortfall. It gets better results than most private schools and has excellent facilities (swimming pool, pitches etc) so we feel it's value for money.

2 of my dc best friends went to different grammars and they've remained friends.

I went to grammar and it was in one of the most deprived areas of UK, with large FSM (like 70%)

When was that?

Dc goes to grammar and FSM is about 20%.

UK average FSM is nearly 24%, average FSM for Grammar in the country is 5%.

Dont think the evidence that grammar schools give better opportunities to poorer kids is at all strong. Grammars are stuffed with kids whose parents have paid enormous amounts for private tutoring. They also bring in kids from a huge catchment area forcing out the opportunities for local kids.