Grammar schooling and the local community

[Cantdohair]

My son is just entering Yr 6 at primary school. We live in a large village in a relatively affluent area with both a primary and secondary school in walking distance.

A big part of the reason we moved here was to be part of a community and so far that has very much been the case. My son has really lucked out with his year group and they are a really strong group of friends who he could theoretically stay with through secondary school. They could all walk in together etc....it all looked very idyllic in my head! (Although I do recognise friendships change a lot at secondary level and they make new friends etc).

Unfortunately I underestimated the grammar school impact. It varies year to year but it looks as though all of his close friends bar one will sitting their 11+. They have all been tutored for some time, are bright, and stand a very good chance of passing. My son is aware of this but is not sitting it himself - this was a joint decision and we don't feel grammar school is right for him. I must admit though, I had underestimated how many of his friends would be sitting it. With the exam in a few weeks we are at peak 11+ fervour amongst parents and peers and it is really starting to bother me.

There is just so much snobbery about it and I just feel really sad that my son will miss out on the secondary school experience I thought he would have within the village that we live. The secondary school in the village is a good school, the results aren't amazing but I suspect this is more the grammar impact rather than the teaching and it has a lovely feel and a great pastoral side. I know its idealistic but it would just be so nice if they could all just go to the same school. I'm sure my son will be fine - he is far less bothered than me (eye roll) - I just feel sad about the whole system and what feels like a lack of loyalty to each other and the community. I'm not sure what I'm looking for really - just some reassurance that I am not crazy for feeling this way!

Where I live there are no schools I am aware of in the county at all that are called comprehensives. In reality in fully grammar areas the top achieving 25% that take the 11+ are missing from the secondary moderns, so with the best will in the world even with a grammar stream they aren’t fully comprehensive. Sure you get a few DC each year that are in the top 25% but not at a grammar but they are the exception and a top set at a secondary modern looks very different to a top set at a true comprehensive.

I you suggesting neither you or your DCs should ever do anything remotely stressful ? Of course it was stressful (as I said it mean SATs weren't remotely) but totally worth it for so many reasons. I question many of my parenting decisions but never that one.

@AboutRound
>Being pedantic - comps don't exist in fully grammar school areas. Comp meaning comprehensive and covering all. Non selective schools in grammar areas have different names eg “academy” “community” etc but none are called comprehensives because they aren’t.

Actually also any grammars have academy status , in particular academy volutary aided. This way they can nag for money.

OPs post is about the added stress the 11+ adds to the move to secondary school which you attest to. Of course life provides plenty of stressful situations, but whether we purposefully include one in our country's educational system targetting children younger than 10 years old is the question? With a transitition to comprehensive schools it doesn't need to be so pressurised from such an early age.

Well that is one way of looking at it. You could also argue that " little and often" is a good way to get used to a bit of stress, so they are used to exams waaaay before any that might dictate their life choices.

Also easier to learn to study at 9 than 15.

Not sure if this link to FE News will work but it lists the top 10 GCSE results by area in 2023.

www.fenews.co.uk/education/new-data-reveals-the-areas-in-england-with-the-highest-and-lowest-gcse-pass-rates/

Interestingly, most of the top 10 areas have Grammar schools Sutton, Kingston, Barnet, Redbridge, Buckinghamshire, Trafford, Slough. Not sure about Richmond, Westminster and Kensington and Chelsea.

So it doesn't look like the presence of Grammar schools has a detrimental effect on GCSE results as a whole.

Thell that to the primary teachers strugglling every day to get attention, focus of the 9.years olds

You have to correct raw GCSE results by area to account for:
-private schools (if included)
-socio-economic factors such as family income, ethnicity, parental jobs and educational attainment etc
Only then is it in any way valid to make comparisons.
Westminster has better results than Skelmersdale? No surprise there….and nothing to do with the schooling system used.

There are no grammars here in Richmond boroughs. The closest one is in Kingston.

Many of the schools had in 2023 7-9 grades at GCSE at 40 %. Some 50%

And Kingston only has the Tiffins, and most of the kids who go to them aren't from the borough.

It's nonsensical to treat areas with a single or pair of superselectives, drawing from a very broad catchment and taking as many kids who would otherwise have gone private as kids who would have gone to local comps, with fully grammar areas.

Why do you think that grammar kids otherwise would go private?
My observation is that to grammar are going those who cannot afford private. I live in Richmond borough and all kids I know who will take exam to Tiffins this year are not considering private because they cannot afford it, neither they have such low earnings to hope for bursary. Ordinary professional parents with two kids.

Little and often that includes paying for private tutors from Yr5 as the 5days schooling a week is not enough for 9/10 year olds thus rendering exams and entry a non-level playing field. Can that ever be seen as a fair system for the children and parents?

Little and often means one exam to divide the kids at 11 years old?

...putting them into the schools where is high competition, nervous breakdowns, self harm, poor pastoral care, mediocre teaching, underfunded education...

Not fair, I completely agree. But an hour a day of preparation is little and often I'd say. My DCs state school was only 9-3:15 many private school children will be at school for another hour and on Saturday mornings. I can't see 11+ prep as all that arduous for a NT Yr 5 child.

Which schools are these ?

It’s simply not true to say there aren’t comprehensive schools in grammar areas. Our local non selective is and refers to itself as a comprehensive as it caters for the full range of abilities. This includes one set of three catering for children who passed the 11+ or were assessed as able to. There is sufficient demand for this full ability range because many people choose for various reasons despite the availability of grammar schools.

Grammar schools have high competition and a lot of mental health issues among kids. There are many ambitious kids there with the huge pressure from their parents to perform well whereas they are competing sometimes against prodigy kids. The schools also push kids and if you don't have a chance for 7-9 grade at GCSE for whatever reason...then you will have a tough time at school.
Recently Ofsted downgraded two local grammar schools in South West London for the reason that the teaching is not outstanding. Neither is pastoral care...

About 20-30% of the kids to somewhere like Tiffin come from private preps; the sample I know who come from that route have said that Tiffin was the only state school they'd consider.

Then I know a lot of state primary parents who have kids at one of the Tiffins or the Sutton schools who have one secondary kid in a grammar and another at Kingston, Claremont Fan or similar.

Obviously that's only the sample I know - I'm over the border in Kingston.

But given the proportion who had already gone private in primary, a proportion for whom one of the Tiffins is a private school alternative for secondary, and the proportion who actually come from the borough and would otherwise have landed in a Kingston comp, I feel pretty comfortable saying that it's nonsensical to compare Kingston (with a pair of superselectives that take kids from well outside the borough) with fully grammar areas.

It doesn't have the full range of abilities in representative numbers, though. That's the point. It can't be truly comprehensive in an area where 25% of the "brightest" go elsewhere.

It's great that it's attractive enough that the parents of able children want to send them there, but it won't be representative.

no that’s not right for our local area. The children for the non selective coming from a very much smaller area than the grammars.

So what proportion of local children go to grammar schools?

if it's an area like mine with one superselective for each sec that take kids from miles around, then I'd agree. Our local comp's population isn't hugely distorted by the absence of the handful of kids who end up at one of the Tiffins who would otherwise have stayed in the state sector and live in the 1.4km radius.

If it's an area where 25% of the state school population attends a grammar, then it's quite different.

It's not just grammars, faith schools have the same impact. In our town, there are two huge faith schools, one Cofe and one Catholic, they "suck" in not only the active religious family children, but also the "parents who care", who suddenly turn religious and attend church for a couple of years to get enough points to secure a place for their child. Because the "parents who care" get their kids into the two faith schools, their results are better, which makes the results of the two comps look poor in comparison, so the next year of parents who care want their kids to go to a faith school too, and so the cycle continues. My son had a lovely group of friends at his village primary school, but they all dispersed to no less than 10 different secondaries - out of his year group of 45, only 4 of them went to the same secondary school as him, and all 4 were in different forms! About 20 went to the Cofe Comp!

My children went to grammar school and they definitely had friends who came from a variety of backgrounds.
They all thrived and have friends who didn't go to grammar school. They have all achieved and its definitely about their upbringing and peer group that guides them in the right direction .