Grammar schooling and the local community

[Cantdohair]

My son is just entering Yr 6 at primary school. We live in a large village in a relatively affluent area with both a primary and secondary school in walking distance.

A big part of the reason we moved here was to be part of a community and so far that has very much been the case. My son has really lucked out with his year group and they are a really strong group of friends who he could theoretically stay with through secondary school. They could all walk in together etc....it all looked very idyllic in my head! (Although I do recognise friendships change a lot at secondary level and they make new friends etc).

Unfortunately I underestimated the grammar school impact. It varies year to year but it looks as though all of his close friends bar one will sitting their 11+. They have all been tutored for some time, are bright, and stand a very good chance of passing. My son is aware of this but is not sitting it himself - this was a joint decision and we don't feel grammar school is right for him. I must admit though, I had underestimated how many of his friends would be sitting it. With the exam in a few weeks we are at peak 11+ fervour amongst parents and peers and it is really starting to bother me.

There is just so much snobbery about it and I just feel really sad that my son will miss out on the secondary school experience I thought he would have within the village that we live. The secondary school in the village is a good school, the results aren't amazing but I suspect this is more the grammar impact rather than the teaching and it has a lovely feel and a great pastoral side. I know its idealistic but it would just be so nice if they could all just go to the same school. I'm sure my son will be fine - he is far less bothered than me (eye roll) - I just feel sad about the whole system and what feels like a lack of loyalty to each other and the community. I'm not sure what I'm looking for really - just some reassurance that I am not crazy for feeling this way!

OP we have grammar schools in our town and it was a real mix at primary school as to who went where. My three did go to Grammar schools but they all had friends at different schools…and still remain friends with many not just the Grammar School students.

@CurlewKate maybe in a full grammar area but not in areas where there is one super selective and multiple non-selective comps. In fact, I know of one local comp which has a grammar school stream for the top performing pupils.

@CurlewKate in my DS’ year at grammar, the 150 pupils attended 84 different primary schools so it doesn’t have any impact on the non-selective secondaries that their former primary school classmates went on to attend. Those secondaries do have top sets.

I do sympathise OP. We live in a grammar school area and I send my DC to the local comp. I personally don’t believe in selective education, I find it elitist and I don’t think 10 year olds need to be pushed and pitted against each other in an exam. It is also inherently unfair- every single one of my DC’s friends who passed were tutored for the whole of Y5 at a cost of upwards of £30 per session. So it’s not a level playing field.

I do think it affects the local secondary as the kids with the more involved parents who might have made a fantastic contribution to school life are attracted by the grammars. I also hate the way it creates this elitist snobbery between parents (and sometimes the kids).

As a secondary teacher myself I don’t think the teaching in grammar schools is better- I know many people I trained or worked with who have left to go to grammars or come back to the state system. I also know lots of excellent teachers who wouldn’t touch grammar or private schools with a barge pole. A colleague of mine has admitted she moved from state to grammar for ‘an easier life’ because we deal with such a large range of behaviour and SEN issues.

I totally understand people choosing it because they look at the grades and facilities and feel it is the ‘best opportunity’ for their child. My argument would be that I want to teach my children that values and beliefs are something you live by and not just say- if I think a system is inherently wrong I am not going to put my kids into that system. I am happy with my choice- my kids have local friends, walk to school, and are friends with people from a wide range of backgrounds.

Being pedantic - comps don't exist in fully grammar school areas. Comp meaning comprehensive and covering all. Non selective schools in grammar areas have different names eg “academy” “community” etc but none are called comprehensives because they aren’t. Some are academies, some are free schools, some are church schools. They are mostly in essence secondary moderns but one thing they are not is comprehensives.

Thank you. This is not the first study either.

OFFS such ill-informed nonsense DC who do the 11+ do naff all for SATs they are a walk in the park in comparison and not looked at again once into grammar school.

Secondly Having a peer group with higher achievers actually boosts all DCs' attainment.

Thirdly there is also very good evidence that " getting the early bus" engenders grit and resilenance in DCs, look at the far East.

Grammar school areas do no better it is true. However the student who attend grammar schools within those areas do slightly better than they would have in a true comprehensive whilst those at the non- grammar school do worse.

The grammar school system broadens the difference.

Goldencup what is interesting about the Durham study linked is that there is more than just that in play:

Furthermore, the team also found that overall pupils in local authority areas who adopt a selective approach had a lower chance of getting top GCSE grades, than equivalent pupils in comprehensive local authority areas, suggesting that the presence of a selective education system can harm educational outcomes.
The researchers suggested this could be due to the negative effects of stress and competitiveness generated by the selective system, which could impact on pupil wellbeing

This is an additional effect on top of the lower performance of those pupils who attend the ‘lower’ of the two tiers of schools in selective areas.

Secondly Having a peer group with higher achievers actually boosts all DCs' attainment.

The research has rejected such idea.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4883686-bright-pupils-are-more-likely-to-get-top-gcse-grades-at-comprehensive-schools-than-grammars-research-has-found?reply=128814934&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Overall, but not with the top grades.

The overall probability of achieving 5 A*-A grades in selective LAs is about 90% that of non-selective LAs after accounting for pupil characteristics and prior attainment.

For pupils in selective areas, regardless of whether they attended a grammar school, their chances of getting top GCSE grades are lower than equivalent pupils in comprehensive LAs. Therefore, while the general results of the two systems reveal no superiority in terms of pupils’ academic outcomes, the detailed pattern of KS4 grades suggests that the selective system is, contrary to popular belief, detrimental to high performers.

TBF that is an American study so not necessarily applicable to the UK system. My understanding was that grammar schools boosted their students grades by an average of half a grade. But that the detriment to the non grammar school students was greater than that.

Hmm I wonder how that would look if you took London out ?
One thing is sure that the poorest achievement is in non-selective schools in grammar areas, even accounting for prior attainment.
No ones loves a secondary modern.

My understanding was that grammar schools boosted their students grades by an average of half a grade.

This is also rejected by UK research.
https://schoolsweek.co.uk/how-progress-8-disguises-grammar-school-pupils-true-attainment

What is an American study?

Everyone is talking about, and linking to, a detailed recent study carried out by researchers at Durham University. The one in the north of England.

An American study wouldn't be talking about either grammar schools or GCSEs.

This is one of the many reasons why grammar schools are awful!

The researchers say this is worth looking at.

But then I suspect you would have grammar school enthusiasts say that you also need to take out Birmingham, Manchester, Bristol, Sheffield etc given the past research that suggests that the "London Effect" is to an extent a "Big City Effect".

Bit touchy there @Goldencup! It’s not ‘ill-informed nonsense’ that the primary schools will heavily concentrate on work on SATS areas for their SATS figures. So the kids will have spent the summer revising for 11+ then go into Yr6 where they will often have SPAG & maths concentrated on heavily until May & only then get the fun bits of year6. I suppose it depends on how much you want these things drilled into your 10 year old.

Personally I think that the idea of selective education based on the 11+ is inherently unfair now due to the ability of MC parents to afford tutoring. It’s made it a completely different playing field to that which which my parents experienced in the 1950s.

Early starts and long days perhaps engender ‘grit’ but I am simply conveying that my DC are very glad not to have to do them! Speaking to friends kids at grammar in the next town they are envious of the later starts and ability to walk to and from school. Seeing them at the bus stop in the dark at just after 7am when I’ve been off to work they’ve looked a bit morose. Plus a bit more time sleeping is good for growth and brain development. It’s useful for the OP to hear a range of experiences. No school environment is perfect, each have their own pros and cons.

To also be pedantic- the non-grammars in areas where entry to the 11+ is optional are comprehensive- they cater for all abilities same as other comprehensive schools in non-grammar areas as the lack of compulsion to do the 11+ means many people (like the OP) don’t put their dcs in for it.

secondary moderns did not cater for top end students. Comprehensive schools are supposed to be able to serve all levels of ability, even if some in the area go to grammar. (Or if they have a large % in that town who go private)

I'm just sad that the system will result in the separation of a really nice bunch of friends.

Unless the system was that you went to your catchment primary then catchment secondary, with the entire primary cohort going to the one secondary, then they could still be separated. My year 6 class split between two state secondaries and one catholic secondary, no grammar schools involved.

Oh yes OP - another thought - my dc1 was one of 12 kids from his primary school class going to a particular secondary school (grammar), there are 5 forms in each year and we were told to name 2 other children, they would only guarantee 1 other in his form. Most secondary schools split primary kids across the forms. It’s unlikely your ds would have had all those primary friends as a group in his secondary school class, and would most likely make new friends in the first term.

is it a ‘full’ grammar area or a ‘superselective’?

if the former you presumably knew the deal in your area . If the latter probably most DC won’t get in.

Not touchy at all my DS who attended a superselective is 19. He is very pleased that he was tutored in yr5 and on the 7:30 bus. He wouldn't be who he is without it. Dd has just done her GCSEs she is choosing to continue to commute to her grammar rather than go to local FE college (20 hours a week she could walk to) because she believes the quality of education will be superior. My days of 11+ stress are long behind me.

He is very pleased that he was tutored in yr5 and on the 7:30 bus. He wouldn't be who he is without it.

she believes the quality of education will be superior.

It is the family background that drive the outcome not the grammar school.

@Goldencup the very fact you refer to it as ‘11+ stress’ is what the OP and others on here are lamenting. Of course it’s good that your DC have enjoyed and thrived in their education, just pointing out that pupils can thrive & enjoy their education in comprehensives too!