Grammar schooling and the local community

[Cantdohair]

My son is just entering Yr 6 at primary school. We live in a large village in a relatively affluent area with both a primary and secondary school in walking distance.

A big part of the reason we moved here was to be part of a community and so far that has very much been the case. My son has really lucked out with his year group and they are a really strong group of friends who he could theoretically stay with through secondary school. They could all walk in together etc....it all looked very idyllic in my head! (Although I do recognise friendships change a lot at secondary level and they make new friends etc).

Unfortunately I underestimated the grammar school impact. It varies year to year but it looks as though all of his close friends bar one will sitting their 11+. They have all been tutored for some time, are bright, and stand a very good chance of passing. My son is aware of this but is not sitting it himself - this was a joint decision and we don't feel grammar school is right for him. I must admit though, I had underestimated how many of his friends would be sitting it. With the exam in a few weeks we are at peak 11+ fervour amongst parents and peers and it is really starting to bother me.

There is just so much snobbery about it and I just feel really sad that my son will miss out on the secondary school experience I thought he would have within the village that we live. The secondary school in the village is a good school, the results aren't amazing but I suspect this is more the grammar impact rather than the teaching and it has a lovely feel and a great pastoral side. I know its idealistic but it would just be so nice if they could all just go to the same school. I'm sure my son will be fine - he is far less bothered than me (eye roll) - I just feel sad about the whole system and what feels like a lack of loyalty to each other and the community. I'm not sure what I'm looking for really - just some reassurance that I am not crazy for feeling this way!

Exactly.

Yes but I was asking for Progress 8 for that particular comprehensive.

It sounds like it's about wealth rather than intelligence, if they're being tutored for it, so it is socially divisive. The 11+ seems to contain material quite a way beyond what's taught in state primary schools.

Having said that, had I the money and grammar schools in my area I'd want my child to have that chance.

It is sad, but also some will go to the comprehensive and there will be other local friends as well as opportunities to stay in touch with old ones if they live close by.

@Treacletoots
>The parents who were obsessed about getting their kids into the grammar schools were on the whole rather unpleasant entitled individuals

Are you sure? I live in London and people who push their kids to grammar are mainly representing certain ethnic groups. In some culture completing grammar and then working in finance, as a doctor or IT specialist is very expected from the kids.
I went to open day in the grammar nearby. My guide was a boy who was running all the time to toilet. Then he told me about psychosomatic digestion issues that he has since the 11+ exam.

@SharonEllis I'd be interested to see the data compared against the data for schools in non grammar areas and understand the proportion of high earning families in the cohort in high achieving schools.

@Pinkback NI where approx 1/3 are grammars. I went to grammar in early 90's.

The shocking fact is that in NI - non grammar school free school meal entitled is 35% and grammar school is 13%.

OP depends where you’re based but I’m in a super selective grammar area. So few kids get through and they travels hours to get to the school, even if they do sit the exams very few get in. So most go to the local comp which is massively on the up and the fears and misguided.

I will say that a lot of Grammars are trying to increase the amount of FSM pupils they get in. For many, they're either first or near the top of the oversubscription criteria or there's a certain number of places set aside for those with FSM.

It's not perfect I know and inequalities still exist.

The 11+ test is the biggest hurdle, the bright kids eligible of free school meal had little resource to help them prepare for the exam.

Definitely. I don't know what other schools are doing to help but what DDs school does is lower the pass mark for those on FSM/PP and then everyone who passes has a guaranteed place (as long as they put it on the CAF form of course).

It doesn't make everyone even completely but they do try at least.

Never said they weren’t less funded but it’s also true that parents and former students contribute to the funds which offsets the reduced funding. At my DC’s grammar the forms (and classes for non-optional
subjects such as maths, English and science) are reduced to 25 from year 10. Presumably they would stick with 30 if there was a funding issue!

@Clymene "Parents do it because - as previous posters have pointed out - they receive very limited funding. "
Easy to get more funding-all they have to do is take more PP and FSM children. Oh, and children with AEN.

I am one of those sharp elbowed grammar parents. I also felt sad that DS’ primary class got split like this and couldn’t just all grow up together. Our local comp is near the grammar zone and from has an excellent comprehensive girls’ school near by so it mostly takes boys who didn’t pass the 11+. The primary school gets split in three directions here.

My DS's SS year was almost entirely comprised of the son's of doctors, lawyers, bankers and IT consultants. There was one boy whose mother was a prison warden ( didn't stay on for sixth form) and a Polish lad whose mother was a childminder. Those are the only exceptions I can think of.

I think the system at the moment is the worst of both worlds. Primary schools not preparing children for the 11+ and huge catchments. At least if you have a grammar and a comprehensive in every catchment area, and everybody is prepared for the 11+, it gives everybody the same chance.

My town used to have two single-sex grammars and two single-sex secondary moderns. Everybody was local, and the school sizes were sensible. There was some movement between them at certain points as well, so you weren't stuck if the other would have suited you.

Now it has one absolutely massive comprehensive. Less space and fewer teachers pro rata, and it does struggle far more to cater to everybody.

A mixed grammar and mixed comprehensive, or two mixed comprehensives have been better if school numbers had to be reduced.

It all feels a bit of a race to the bottom. Spend on education in London is higher than the rest of the U.K. and schools are closing because there aren't enough pupils.

Islington has the highest spend per child of anywhere in the country - over £8,000 per child. The average house price in Islington is over £800,000. The children getting the most spent on them are not the most deprived unfortunately.

"I think the system at the moment is the worst of both worlds. Primary schools not preparing children for the 11+ and huge catchments. At least if you have a grammar and a comprehensive in every catchment area, and everybody is prepared for the 11+, it gives everybody the same chance."

Two things. You don't have a grammar and a comprehensive. You have a grammar and a secondary modern. And even if kids are prepared at school they still don't have the same chance. Socio-economic status and parental involvement will still be the best indicators of whether a kid passes the 11+

My DD went to the grammar school, her best friend from primary school did not. They are still best friends 15 years later.

Just popping this recent research here given we've seen the 'grammars stretch the brightest students' and 'grammars give opportunities to bright poor kids' arguments both pop up.

Grammar school system does not boost grades and could be detrimental to some

I understand what you mean, it’s one of the great disadvantages of the grammar system that it’s divisive! For what it’s worth I know a handful of children & their parents who chose to go out of area to grammar school in our locality. Most have had a wobble because they wish they’d gone to the local comp (which is outstanding) with their primary friends. Their days are much longer due to bus journeys and the parents have to facilitate journeys to see friends much further afield (think two towns/45mins drive away rather than the neighbouring village 5mins.)

Be confident in your decision making for your son. He will have just had a summer holiday while the others will have been cramming for the 11+ and they will then all have SATS to sit this year anyway which at 10/11 years old is quite enough academic pressure!

My DC are academically doing very well at the comp, winning awards, great feedback from teachers etc..That said they do sometimes have to put up with disruptive people in classes but that’s a life lesson in itself. If they’d gone to the grammar they would have been one of many bright children but in a mixed school they probably have more chance to shine. Plus they’d never have got up for the early bus!!

In reality only a couple of kids from each school will go to grammar.
However, my dd(20) didn't sit the 11+ and all her friends went either to Grammar, private, or the marginally better school in the next town.
She's still good friends with lots of them now and this is mainly down to geography (who lived nearest to us) and the after school interests they had in common.

The non-selective schools in the catchment area for my DC’s grammar are comprehensives because it is a highly selective grammar with a wide catchment area, with 20% of the places not having a catchment area at all. It strikes a good balance, exceptionally bright children like my DS get the education they need but all of the other secondary schools are of a decent standard. In fact, they are much higher performing than the completely non-selective area that we moved from.

You don't have a grammar and a comprehensive. You have a grammar and a secondary modern.

Do they have to be? I'm fairly sure the most local area to me which still has them has grammars and comprehensives, although most are now strictly speaking academies I think. Being a comprehensive rather than a secondary modern would mean you could go to it regardless of whether you'd sat and passed, sat and didn't pass or didn't sit the 11+?

I agree with your second point, but somebody said that 11+ tested things that weren't being taught in state primary schools. If they had to prepare for the 11+ then they'd have to cover those topics. Obviously problem-solving and applying what you know is something that's tested, but you need to know the concept or you could be very clever and still have no chance of answering the question.

A comprehensive school has a full range of abilities. A school in a grammar area doesn't have a top set. The term secondary modern is outdated, but the only one that exists!