"We don't want you to sit with us"

[challengerequired]

Is this ever an ok thing to say? When the student in question is just sitting quietly?
Head of Year thinks it's okay - "you can't force people to be friends"

@Changemusthappen he is disabled

It’s interesting that these NT teens cannot be expected to feel even slightly uncomfortable for 30mins but the excluded child is fine to be uncomfortable all day
Has anyone actually said that?

The school have a duty to the OP's child and where they aren't meeting it (like some of what OP mentioned about the other social groups/lunch clubs/staff in support base) then that needs to be raised. The school's duty does not include telling other students they must have another student be attached to their friendship group for the (typically) 30 minutes of social time available in the school day.

Like most adults, the conversations I would have with my friends are different to those i would have if the audience was wider and included people i know but am not friends with. Not all teenagers will meet up regularly out of school, especially if there's a large catchment. Expecting a group of friends to lose or seriously modify their limited social time is unreasonable.

OP I’m very sorry I haven’t read the whole thread but I think I have the gist of it. In your shoes I wouldn’t wait for the next EHCP review I’d ask for a meeting with the TAs and SENCO and ask them to identify anyone at all that you DC can be supported to build bridges with. And then i would start to do a bit of detective work to find out who the parents are and if there’s anything I could do outside of school time to foster a friendship ie by inviting this other youngster over, meeting in the park or whatever. Teens are notoriously cliquey and it must be heartbreaking for you. But there must be someone he could find a friendship of sorts with. I agree with other posters about not expecting people to accept him if they don’t wish to. Might seem harsh but surely better to focus on finding a genuine alliance of sorts. Could you ask school to set up and support a mini group at lunchtimes? Ask for it to be added into his EHCP?

"these NT teens cannot be expected to feel even slightly uncomfortable for 30mins"

How many of you who hold these views would have lunch every single day with someone they find tiresome and annoying?! No, thought not.

Does the school not have a library?

Maybe he could catch up with homework there over lunchtime and thus he'd have more free time at home.

It would depend on whether the child has been nasty to someone then I think they’re within their rights to say they don’t want him sitting there.
I know lots of friendship groups fall out and say one person can’t sit there and then it’s forgotten about and then it changes to a new person. Kids have fall outs all the time so it’s no necessarily just because someone has SEND that they’re being pushed out of the group.

I’m my DDs school there was a friendship bench where you sat if you had no one to play with and anyone was allowed to sit there which I thought was a lovely idea

I suspect this boy is the 'leader' of the group and I bet some in the group aren't bothered if he sits there or not, however aren't assertive enough to say. We are not raising our children, especially girls to be assertive enough imo

But on the flip side they have been assertive and are being told not to be and to keep quiet even if they’re not comfortable with it.

Threads still going and still no one has thought to consider exactly who these kids think they are deciding who sits where in a canteen - and who the school considers has this right and who doesn't.

I stand by what I said unthread. Just ask the school the simple question.

"Who do they give permission to to decide who sits where and what empty seats can be occupied by whom?"

Sometimes you have to move away from complaining to simply ask them how they've come about their decision.

In this case it's to allow a group of students to be in charge of seating.

It's disgusting that they are allowing students the authority to decide who can and can't sit where in a public place.

@toocold54

I suspect this boy is the 'leader' of the group and I bet some in the group aren't bothered if he sits there or not, however aren't assertive enough to say. We are not raising our children, especially girls to be assertive enough imo

But on the flip side they have been assertive and are being told not to be and to keep quiet even if they’re not comfortable with it.

Said what I was thinking

What help is your son receiving for his social skills OP?

@itsgettingwierd

Threads still going and still no one has thought to consider exactly who these kids think they are deciding who sits where in a canteen - and who the school considers has this right and who doesn't.

I stand by what I said unthread. Just ask the school the simple question.

"Who do they give permission to to decide who sits where and what empty seats can be occupied by whom?"

Sometimes you have to move away from complaining to simply ask them how they've come about their decision.

In this case it's to allow a group of students to be in charge of seating.

It's disgusting that they are allowing students the authority to decide who can and can't sit where in a public place.

If OP's son is simply using a vacant seat, which happens to be always with the group, and he just sits there to eat his lunch then I think it's unacceptable to demand he doesn't sit there.

However I'm not getting the impression it's as simple as a group being domineering dictating that a student can't use the spare seat, I'm feeling there is more to it - he's possibly interacting with them and they don't like it - they are entitled to not like something...

@baldafrique none at the moment

The trouble is, no one actually knows what went on.
It could have been:
You can't sit there (x is coming soon)
You can't sit there (kid didn't mean to be hurtful but just blurted it out)
You can't sit there (oh ffs, not you again)
You can't sit there (I'm a nasty shit who gets off on the power)
You can't sit there (because you'll try and talk about cars cos I was nice to you in physics and wasbeing polite, but now I want to talk to the others)
You can't sit there (I'm bottom of the pecking order here and I need to show that I have some authority)
You can't sit there (I don't really have much in common with you, but don't yet have the social skills to articulate that)
You can't sit there (you haven't been getting the hint that we're not really your mates, so I'm having to spell it out)
You can't sit there (it's nothing personal, you're just not one of us)

Adults do this more subtly, but it's still done. And yes, I teach my dc to be kind and include others (although ds is more likely to be the kid left out tbf, as I was), but kids should be free to choose who they want to hang out with. So many friendship and social issues arise in schools cos x wants to be friends with y, but y doesn't want to. The kids need to be taught nicer ways of responding, but equally, the boy needs to find other kids.

@toocold54

I suspect this boy is the 'leader' of the group and I bet some in the group aren't bothered if he sits there or not, however aren't assertive enough to say. We are not raising our children, especially girls to be assertive enough imo

But on the flip side they have been assertive and are being told not to be and to keep quiet even if they’re not comfortable with it.

Exactly..

itsgettingwierd
I think you're missing the point a little. This doesn't sound like a one off telling someone they can't sit in an empty seat, and it's much more like an ongoing situation where one group of students is feeling like they're not able to socialise as a group because another student keeps following them around.

You may say who decides who can sit in empty seats, but it on its head, who gets to decide that they are entitled to join any friendship group they like and other students have to suck it up? It's not as black and white as you're suggesting

Possibly the OP knows this, but how do any of us know the social skills of this group? Maybe they can't cope with attention of OP's son?

My DS has SEN and one part of it is being anxious. He's only happy with his little group of friends (they are all similar) and they'd all find extra attention very awkward and not know how to deal with it. My DS can be quite blunt when somethings bothering him.

Could there be a reason like above that's why school won't enforce this lunchtime plan?

I think you need to contact school OP

@blahblahblah321

Possibly the OP knows this, but how do any of us know the social skills of this group? Maybe they can't cope with attention of OP's son?

My DS has SEN and one part of it is being anxious. He's only happy with his little group of friends (they are all similar) and they'd all find extra attention very awkward and not know how to deal with it. My DS can be quite blunt when somethings bothering him.

Could there be a reason like above that's why school won't enforce this lunchtime plan?

I think you need to contact school OP

I wanted to add, if my son was in that position I'd like to think he would include the boy, but he'd need support himself to work out how to do it ( and we'd happily work with him on that)

@Changemusthappen and yet, when they are assertive, your response is that their wishes must be overridden?

It's sad he isnt getting help with his social skills

OP apologies I hadn't read the thread fully, I normally do.

I was agreeing with Glencora, as did the OP, the children should be able to include someone for a short time. I meant that the other children in the group need to be more assertive if the 'leader' is just taking over. Children need to be encouraged to assert themselves and say 'no actually, xy please join us today, no problem'.

Put the same situation into a different context.

A group of 4 women work for the same company and meet in the break room on the second floor at 12:30 for lunch and a chat.

One day Dave pulls up a chair and joins then, they include him in the conversation, and so he starts joining then every day.

After a few weeks they decide to start meeting at 12 so the can plan their holiday without Dave, as they are leaving he comes in, smiles and greetings all round. The next day Dave is there at 12.

After another week they decide to switch floors and meet on the 4th floor at 12:30 after a couple more days Dave tracks them down and pulls up a chair.

Sally turns to Dave and says do you mind awfully sitting somewhere else we’re having a private conversation.

Dave goes to HR and complains that they are excluding him…

Other than the fact that adults would handle it differently how is the situation different and is Sally at all in the wrong to send Dave away?

I agree with every post @TwinsAndTrifle has made.

I have two children, both of whom are at secondary school, and have asd. The eldest has had issues with bullying and frenemies in primary, but transitioned/settled well at secondary, and has good friends that get her, and accept and like who/how she is.
My youngest has (and has had) huge issues socially, he struggled all through primary, and he would be that little boy walking around the outside of the playground by himself, because no-one wanted to play/chat with him. Not all the time, sometimes he was part of groups, and played etc, but he's extremely intense, and intransigent, and he can be very hard work; tbh a lot of the time most other kids have no idea of what he's monologuing on about. It has taken us years of working on his social skills, us and school, to get him to where he is now- at secondary, able to interact for a decent part of the social time, beginning to make a few genuine friends. We still have to regularly remind him of how to speak to people cordially, and that others need to be allowed to participate in conversations too, but he is improving.

I do not think it's a reasonable request that he sit with this group. He isn't part of their social group, why should he be? Other mechanisms exist for him to pass social time- I would be far more concerned about the small inclusion support groups that aren't working, and pushing for that kind of provision than trying to make other children accept him. That isn't inclusion, it's tolerance, and there's a huge difference there. I don't want my son 'tolerated' thanks- I want him to find his own niche and make genuine connections with people. He desperately wants and needs that too.

Please do consider a different approach.

@TheMoth

The trouble is, no one actually knows what went on. It could have been: You can't sit there (x is coming soon) You can't sit there (kid didn't mean to be hurtful but just blurted it out) You can't sit there (oh ffs, not you again) You can't sit there (I'm a nasty shit who gets off on the power) You can't sit there (because you'll try and talk about cars cos I was nice to you in physics and wasbeing polite, but now I want to talk to the others) You can't sit there (I'm bottom of the pecking order here and I need to show that I have some authority) You can't sit there (I don't really have much in common with you, but don't yet have the social skills to articulate that) You can't sit there (you haven't been getting the hint that we're not really your mates, so I'm having to spell it out) You can't sit there (it's nothing personal, you're just not one of us)

Adults do this more subtly, but it's still done. And yes, I teach my dc to be kind and include others (although ds is more likely to be the kid left out tbf, as I was), but kids should be free to choose who they want to hang out with. So many friendship and social issues arise in schools cos x wants to be friends with y, but y doesn't want to. The kids need to be taught nicer ways of responding, but equally, the boy needs to find other kids.

All of which misses the point that it's a canteen. So if there's a seat free, he can sit where he likes. They don't own the spare seat and need to graciously recognise that.

And has been pointed out @Cowbells , he can sit where he likes, and if that's all that's annoying the group they are being a bit unreasonable. However if it's more than just sitting there - he expects to talk to the one boy about cars etc, then that's different to just a spare chair in the canteen surely

@Bluebird76

"these NT teens cannot be expected to feel even slightly uncomfortable for 30mins"

How many of you who hold these views would have lunch every single day with someone they find tiresome and annoying?! No, thought not.

The OP said he was sitting there quietly. How tiresome and annoying can that be? And to answer your question, I would certainly try to rather than be unkind and leaving that person with nowhere to sit and no one to be with.