"We don't want you to sit with us"

[challengerequired]

Is this ever an ok thing to say? When the student in question is just sitting quietly?
Head of Year thinks it's okay - "you can't force people to be friends"

So they can say - 'I don't want to talk about cars right now. We're having a private conversation.' But they don't colonise empty seats to make others feel like mud on a shoe. It's not that hard to navigate the slightly uncomfortable situation. Good skill to acquire, a rather better one than the art of being cliquey and elitist.

My DC are in a social group quite similar to the one I had in my teens. It is intentionally inclusive. Two of the school's coolest kids (sports A team, very good looking) decided to gather up all the misfits who had no one to hang out with and invite them to their parties. From that act of generosity, the social group expanded and now it is a big diverse group of really close friends. It is possible, and imo a lot happier and healthier than closing down into like-minded cliques at such a young age.

I regularly sit through lunch and other things with people who may not be my best friends. Sometimes I have found that the person I may have thought annoying actually is very interesting they just lack some social skills .

I really hate this attitude that teenagers are selfish so we should just accept this as a given and let them get on with it . Firstly as the previous post shows not all teenagers are selfish, secondly as adults it is important to help them to become less selfish and more empathetic not just give up

The pupil didn't say 'you can't' he said 'we don't want you to', and there is a difference.

Cowbells That is a really good thing the 'cool' kids did and it would be great if there were more kids like them. Kids who actively look out for outsiders.

Perhaps if other posters who are saying how terrible this particular group of kids are, would actively encourage their own kids to look out for and include outsiders, then the OP's son wouldn't be in the position he is in.

Children exclude all the time by not actively including. If just a small % actively included then those of our kids who are on the outside would find acceptance.

Still wondering what some people understand by inclusivity...

@challengerequired

Still wondering what some people understand by inclusivity...

What do you understand by inclusivity?

You have come onto MN and offered very vague details of what happened so people are responding to what you’ve said with their opinions and experiences. You don’t seem to like that though.

I work in a school (primary) and I often tell children that I will never ever force them to be friends or to play with certain children as its totally normal to not want to be friends with or even like certain people. I wouldn't want to be forced to spend time with people I don't like HOWEVER I always stipulate that if you don't want to play with them it's fine but don't be unkind about it and don't be mean to them. Just stay away.

For me inclusivity is just a failed idea. Ideally it should mean that everyone should be included on equal terms but in all honesty that is never going to happen.

I have argued on here for teenagers to be actively encouraged to be inclusive and to consider the challenges that others face especially in public spaces however those of us who have dc with social challenges also have to help them to fit in as well. We can’t expect the world to change for them, sometimes this has involved role play, social stories, and sometimes firm rules and even ‘do not say thats’ or ‘do not do this’ and all the other social coaching mentioned by the others on this thread .

But to the parents of children who are lucky enough not to have these difficulties, it can be a long and lonely road and it would be nice to think that we could be met halfway , that dc were being encouraged to think about the effect of their actions on others and what they could do to help those feeling awkward to feel more comfortable, Honestly it can pay huge dividends to both parties .

Something I have often said to my NT dc is that yes it’s awkward but it is only for a little while, your brother will be struggling with this for life. The courage it probably takes for the OPs son to even start a conversation is huge, all I am saying is that all children should be encouraged to stop and think about the impact of their actions on others and maybe take a step back.

OP kids can seem mean to each other but the situation you describe happens everyday. We as adults would (hopefully) never do this but this is all a part of learning.

As parents it’s so difficult to hear so you have my full sympathies. I walked past my DDs school and she was sat in the corner by herself and it broke my heart but it’s just what happens and the next day everything was fine. It is just kids being kids and it has nothing to do with your son’s needs. Chances are these kids could have special needs too or your son has been part of the group telling someone else they can’t sit with them. If it is just that they don’t want to play/sit with him then fine but if they are seeking him out to make fun of him than that is not ok.

@TeenMinusTests

The pupil didn't say 'you can't' he said 'we don't want you to', and there is a difference.

Cowbells That is a really good thing the 'cool' kids did and it would be great if there were more kids like them. Kids who actively look out for outsiders.

Perhaps if other posters who are saying how terrible this particular group of kids are, would actively encourage their own kids to look out for and include outsiders, then the OP's son wouldn't be in the position he is in.

Children exclude all the time by not actively including. If just a small % actively included then those of our kids who are on the outside would find acceptance.

Absolutely. And the irony is - the cool kids get so much out of mixing with the social misfits. They discover the quirky, odd ones, once they are relaxed and happy, are funny, kind, intelligent, off beat. They expand each others ways of thinking, the music they listen to, the interests they have. It's not an act of social sacrifice. It's a broadening of horizons. Why schools don't put more effort into this baffles me. I genuinely had the time of my life in my teens. Some highlights include a gig I went to with an SEN mate, parties at his house, camping on the beach with a motley crew of misfits, all happily bathing together at midnight and having fires on the beach. It was idyllic. My DC have something similar with their diverse bunch of friends too.

Why does everyone assume that they’re the “cool kids” who are just being mean? The geeky kids / misfit kids / artsy kids / computer nerd kids etc. are also entitled to their own space and choice of friends.

Cowbells I think my kids have missed out.
They attend ( to me) a huge school with these so called "tribes" that in my youth I thought if as a US phenomenon. It's dire imo.

I personally think schools are too big now . Economically it works better and many people argue that more children means more choice of friends but in practice it often doesn’t work that way . The huge schools mean that it is almost impossible for teachers to really know the dc as individuals and vice versa . Schools often seem to be reduced to crowd control and the only way to manage these huge numbers seems to be ( in this country) to prioritise conformity which of course leads to nonconformists being ‘a problem’ .

The children can feel lost and anonymous and as if there is no anchor at school. When my dc moved to a smaller school ( still 800) I was struck that one day he said that he had looked down his line at assembly and he knew every person and they knew him, he knew all the staff at least by name and they mostly knew who he was. I was surprised at how much this mattered to him .

I'm guessing he doesn't have much in common with this group. It's a bit like expecting a sibling to hang out with the other siblings friendship group. Probably tolerated every now and again but every time would be too much. The thing is there will be dc that do have more in common and it's holding your ds back from meeting them by picking the crowd who clearly don't want to be his friend. It likely isn't doing his confidence much food either. I doubt it's a space issue if it's the same group every time. In sure it's not the only spare seat!

As an aside I wonder how the school would react if a disabled/trans/muslim pupil was told this? If the answer would be different then it's not on.

So are you only allowed to not want to be friends with able bodied, straight, white children then. It's ok to tell the annoying white child you don't want to be friends with them but not the annoying Muslim or trans child. Obviously if they are saying we don't want Muslims sitting with us then that's not ok, but OP hasn't mentioned they've said to her ds that they don't want him there because he's disabled. It's more likely he's annoying/doesn't have much in common and it seems he's latched on to one boy in particular, which must be pretty intense and awkward for that child. He will be missing the desired interaction with his actual friends and the group dynamic will be changed. This might also put him off being friendly toward him in class.

It's heartbreaking OP.
I like @Cowbells experience re so called 'cool kids' welcoming neuro diverse kids- this has a positive knock on effect and surely makes life better for lonely kids and easier for all! And what a great life skil, for adulthood.
The posts seem to be divided into two camps: one which is aware of kids like OP's son (and empathises) and another camp who seem to think that non NT kids shouldn't get in the way of their kids life.
Sadly a lot of kids seem to think that it's not cool to be mates with a non NT kid.
They might be regarded as a "bit odd" themselves if they hang around with them and oh dear we can't have that can we? Thankfully for them disability/non NT is not contagious.
Instead of blaming the Neuro diverse and trying to teach them how to socialise (my child was given a list of what to say and what not to) maybe we should teach other kids how to develop an ounce of empathy. I can't honestly say that school were massively helpful.
In our experience it helped to look at the parents' attitudes; it explained a lot and I couldn't see them in the same way as before.
If it helps OP, my child is enjoying her first post-16 education and has met some lovely kind, supportive friends.
And I have to echo @GlencoraP's post re the other characteristics. It wouldn't and shouldn't be tolerated.
Best wishes OP and your son 💐

Thank you so much @Eyesofdisarray

I’m amazed at fond of the answers here. It’s bullying by exclusion. Unkind. I would be mortified if my children behaved like that. It’s different if the person is being unpleasant but that doesn’t sound like the case here.

One of my proudest moments at parents’ evening last week was when the PE teacher told me my very sporty popular son had been paired up with a socially awkward non sporty peer for badminton. My son took it on the chin, was kind to him and got on with it, helping him.

Probably meant more to me as one of my other children has been on the other end of exclusion and it was awful for his self esteem.

Can I also say @challengerequired that my child who was excluded by others has thrived as he’s got older.

I live in hope @doorornottodoor
Thank you

I’m sorry @challengerequired that must be heartbreaking for you to hear. My son is only 3 but the thought of him being excluded and lonely makes me so sad. I imagine it’s compounded by feeling helpless to change the situation.

Of course nobody should be forced to be friends with anyone or hang out with them regularly by choice. But from what I can tell your DS just wants to sit on their table at lunchtime. I can see from their perspective it might be challenging if they want to stay in their clique but it’s a good lesson in empathy for them. They are presumably with their friends all day at school, see each other socially and can also catch up at other points in the school day. Spending half an hour or so with someone with special needs who is obviously struggling is in my opinion not a big ask. Not wanting to include him in their conversation is one thing but to actively tell him not to sit there in a communal space is pretty cruel.

IMO it’s not comparable to a situation a PP mentioned of friends meeting in a restaurant and being joined by someone they don’t like - this isn’t friends meeting socially in a pre arranged group, it’s kids having lunch in a school setting where nobody gets to dictate where someone else sits.

I don’t have any advice OP but I don’t think you’re being unreasonable and I really feel for you and your son. I hope you manage to get some more support from the school

doorornottodoor
That's lovely, though in my experience the vast majority of students would do exactly what your DC did in that situation.
Most students will work with whoever the teacher pairs them with. They do group work with whoever the teacher puts them in a group with. They'll chat and get on with whoever the teacher puts near them in a seating plan.

Loads of posters (not you) on this thread seem to think that secondary students are awful exclusionary bullies and that their child is somehow amazingly more inclusive than all the others, when in reality most kids will get on fine with most other kids in class, and want to spend their lunchtimes with their friends. It's really not that unreasonable to want to have their social time as their friendship group without someone else always tagging on.

If a student hasn't got appropriate support, or the space isn't there to meet likeminded peers then the school need to raise their game and provide it, not expect other students to suck it up.

@GlencoraP

I personally think schools are too big now . Economically it works better and many people argue that more children means more choice of friends but in practice it often doesn’t work that way . The huge schools mean that it is almost impossible for teachers to really know the dc as individuals and vice versa . Schools often seem to be reduced to crowd control and the only way to manage these huge numbers seems to be ( in this country) to prioritise conformity which of course leads to nonconformists being ‘a problem’ .

The children can feel lost and anonymous and as if there is no anchor at school. When my dc moved to a smaller school ( still 800) I was struck that one day he said that he had looked down his line at assembly and he knew every person and they knew him, he knew all the staff at least by name and they mostly knew who he was. I was surprised at how much this mattered to him .

I completely agree that schools are too big. I hadn't thought of this leading to prioritising conformity but I bet you are right about that. It is understandable that teens cluster into tribes to feel like they can navigate them. But fostering the feeling of a cohesive community is much healthier for society.

bumble They are presumably with their friends all day at school, see each other socially and can also catch up at other points in the school day

As your child is only 3 I'll let you off for that incorrect assumption.
It is quite possible to not see friends in lessons at all if they are in the opposite half of the year, in different forms or sets, or doing different options.
The only time to socialise can be 15mins at break at maybe 45 mins at lunch. These times also include finding each other, queuing for food, using loos and being at the right location afterwards. If one of those friends comes in and out on the school bus or similar then there will be no time before or after school either.

Lots of lovely examples of children who take ND children under their wings occasionally. The difference in my opinion is the expectation in this case is that it's not occasional, it's not a couple of PE lessons a week etc. It's every day and if they don't cooperate they are bullies. Nice.

I'd always expect my children to be kind, I would hate them to be nasty to anyone, but I'd draw the line of them being told that they have no choice to who they talk to, or sit with during their lunchtime. Im struggling with the "sits quietly" part baring in mind he wants to be with the child who talks to him - but that's been asked a few times and ignored. I wonder how quiet he is. My DS has SEN , he sounds very similar. He's generally very quiet, but has very distinct interests in life and is in his element if he can find someone who happily talks about his interests. Would I expect that person to deal with him every day? No I wouldn't - that's not fair. I'd like to think that person would chat to him from time to time, but I wouldn't demand daily, and I'd explain that to DS as best I could (not easy I know)

It's hard to really pull apart what the story really is here OP, obviously you are vehemently going to defend your boy, of course you are, but I wonder how long this has been going on, how long the group have gone along with it, how the "you can't sit here" was presented to him, how much was he keen to have the attention of this child, how much that child can cope with it - I'm very introverted, I don't have SEN but would struggle massively with having someone wanting to talk to me every day.

I find the schools response interesting, they need to support your DS, but as I said up thread, I wonder if there is a reason they won't encourage this friendship.

I know what it's like to have a child with SEN. My DS has complex medical and learning/social needs. He's the opposite to your son OP, in that he's much more taller than his peers and has gone into puberty early so is having to deal with feelings/hormones when really he's a young boy. Most people expect him to cope with more due to the fact he looks like a young adult when actually he's 12. I'd wrap him up in cotton wool if I could, but I can't