Impossible question - but do you think children in private schools are ‘happier’?

[Diddlysquatty]

I’ve posted a bit about my yr 8 Dd.
High flier confident and bright and primary, she’s not enjoying her large (1500) ofsted outstanding state academy secondary.
She’s become quite down, self conscious, and had friendship issues. She’s not very motivated with school work and tends to do the minimum. Dismisses a lot of subjects as boring and says they don’t matter as she won’t do them for gcse anyway. Marks are ok but achievement has slipped a bit. Obviously impossible to say what role lockdown has played.

I’d offered her the option of changing schools at the height of the friendship issues (she’s in a bit of a toxic foursome) but she said she wouldn’t like to start again somewhere.

We’re coming into some money that means private would probably be possible and my mum apparently said to my husband over xmas, when asking after Dd, that they’d like to help if we wanted to move her.

He’s keen on the idea from an academic perspective. I think he thinks in a smaller, private school they’d pick up on and help with lack of motivation, and filling any gaps from lockdown.

I’m just not sure whether we should even consider it.

The pressure at school is one of the things she complains about - she’s in top sets and in a tutor group that’s doing a special language immersion stream (supposedly) so is with generally more able people.
Surely this aspect would be worse at an academically selective secondary?

Could they really help with motivation or would it make no difference?

It does sound like the teachers are beaten down where she is but there’s no guarantee this would be different at private is there?

I know that some people choose private for academic or social reasons, but what about well-being? Are kids more likely to come out well balanced and resilient, or is the opposite true if there is more competition, issues of wealth etc?

I know I’m asking the impossible but would appreciate thoughts.

I went to a small private all girls school and there were definitely lots of mental health issues going on there!

I know my husband doesn’t agree but I’m not so fussed about grades - apart from the extent to which this would boost her - but most of all I want her to be happy and feel like she’s fulfilling her potential

Thank you everyone and @flourandeggs what you wrote is lovely.

I think we’re ok, I think she’s ok where she is. Maybe if we could have comfortably afforded it from year 7 another school would’ve been better but that wasn’t the case ah that point.
I think maybe my mum saying that to DH and then DH getting all keen on the idea made me doubt myself a bit, but I know that private is not necessarily better. And we have learnt that she doesn’t respond to pressure particularly well but at the same time needs to be pushed. DH’s main reason for moving her would be academic but as many of you have said, she would not necessarily feel more motivated elsewhere.

In answer to another question - I have been concerned about depression, yes (see YET another thread in Teens)
Although for example now when not at school she is transformed at times and full of beans, laughing and joking with her sister.

Great advice just to be there as she goes through this massive time of change and be supportive and accepting of who she grows into being.

I only asked her if she wanted to consider moving in broad terms earlier, I wouldn’t want to talk about specifically private schools with her unless we knew we could afford it.
She knows that her school is free but other local ones you have to pay for

To suggest state school children more likely (even in your anecdotal opinion) to have more of a problem with phones is really verging on ignorance

I didn't say they had more of a problem with phones (although when dd3 was at state secondary that's all they did at lunchtime whereas now she has enough time at lunch to do proper sport or art club and all phones are left in boarding houses), I said they are monosyllabic and glued to their phones if you ever meet them anywhere, whereas dds friends are chatty and nice to talk to.

You can try and call me ignorant all you like but that's my experience, if you don't like it then do ahead and rubbish it.

And actually, her old state school friends ARE more obsessed with her phones, as she told me when she went round to an old friend's house last year - four of them, and the three just sat scrolling on their phones the whole time, not even talking to each other. She came home and said never again.

Op, do you like the girls who come out of the school you are looking at? Is it single sex?

We probably all have different experiences state v private and tech / phones

I can’t relate to below about friends just scrolling when meeting up

My experience is that some children are monosyllabic and some are quite chatty. And it doesn't have an awful lot to do with the school they go to. My niece and nephew both go to (the same) private school. My niece never stops talking whereas my nephew generally struggles to manage to say "hello".

Depends on the child, depends on the school, depends on their class mates, depends on their circumstances outside of school etc.
Not only is this not predictable, but it can also change over time.
However, irrelevant of state or private, you are looking for the best fit for your child.

@MrsMiaWallis

And actually, her old state school friends ARE more obsessed with her phones, as she told me when she went round to an old friend's house last year - four of them, and the three just sat scrolling on their phones the whole time, not even talking to each other. She came home and said never again.

So there are 3 phone obsessed state school children. I'm not sure that is enough of a sample to extropolate to the whole sector. Not sure why my state school educated children and their friends are so keen to go and hang out in parks in the cold and damp (the only thing they can do under Covid restrictions) if they are just looking at their phones the whole time, though.

My experience is that some children are monosyllabic and some are quite chatty. And it doesn't have an awful lot to do with the school they go to

It seems to in my experience. Of course kids are different and you get grumpy kids everywhere, but personally I like that chatty self confidence that seems to come with private school, i know many on mumsnet hate it.

I personally think that if you know your child well and chose the school that best matches their personality then that’s the best formula for happiness - not a choice between private or state.

For example, we all loved our local girls grammar school. It was buzzy, full of quirky girls (with a real acceptance and appreciation of differences), teachers were engaging and seemed genuinely interested in the girls, just gave off positive vibes. In the end she chose the independent school which didn’t have as great results but isn’t as selective as the grammar so to be expected.

We discounted pretty much all the big name super selective independents in our area as they didn’t have as much sport and where they did, it wasn’t that inclusive unless you were A team material and also I think she’s much better being academically towards the top of a mixed cohort than middle to bottom of an academic school.

She is BEYOND happy at school. If you’re not doing extra curricular stuff after school you have to do homework - so most girls do something every day. She has a wonderful peer group and there’s new people joining regularly. Nobody has left yet.

Her good friend went to a top 20 independent for results. She is utterly miserable. She has found herself as decidedly average after years being top of the class. Her parents are tutoring outside school to try and keep up. There’s no football team and that’s the sport she loves. But the parents are blinkered by the reputation of the school and seem oblivious to how miserable she is (the girls regularly FaceTime).

I also echo the Y8 issues. They all of a sudden prefer to spend more time alone in their rooms just chilling, become more self conscious as their bodies change, realise that actually their friendship group isn’t what they are looking for any more and they seem rather fickle. All not helped by lockdown. The answer may not be moving schools.

@MrsMiaWallis I know many happy confident chatty state school kids who will talk happily to adults about an array of subjects. Ditto private school kids. I have also worked with many kids from both sectors who struggle with shyness, mental health issues, panic attacks. Stereotyping does not do you any favours, you really do need to see that children vary as much as adults and can’t be formed purely by a fee paying school. It would be like me saying everyone at a certain law firm is happy and confident because they work at that firm and it is a good firm that achieves results for its clients. It simply could never be true. Some of the employees will love their work others won’t... it will be to do with their stage in life, their personality, things going on in their personal life, how they feel about their boss, their colleagues, their clients. Private school can do somethings of course but it can’t guarantee happiness and it can’t change a core personality. And life is so much more nuanced than you suggest when you say private school kids are confident and state school kids aren’t, you just make yourself look silly when say things like that.

@MrsMiaWallis I know what you’re saying, but I suppose in a way that’s one of my concerns about private. I think a class full of chatty confident girls would probably not work for my dd.
And her current state school ‘friends’ are exactly like that.

The friendship circle and social side is difficult to predict at any school. However she is also turned-off learning and EC activities. Year 7s and 8s may not get the best teachers but what do you know about the quality of teaching for GCSEs and A levels? I would be cynical about this so-called immersion MFL course (basically accelerated learning) and the benefits of doing the GCSE in year 9. Perhaps there is a private school that is a better fit for her locally. Certainly worth some research even if the answer turns out to be no. What about a few sessions with some inspiring external tutor teaching something outside her syllabus? Also she is still young enough to persuade to try some different external activities that she might enjoy (without the baggage of measured achievement that EC music and dance can have).

Visit the possible schools. I think you get a real feel for a place by visiting it. But Covid might stop that.

I think it is really important to differentiate between ‘polish’ and ‘confidence’ these are two very different things. Let’s take Stephen Fry and Jamie Oliver as an example. Stephen Fry as a young adult had polish - wore smart suits, looked people in the eye when he met them, knew the right things to say. Beneath that he was a seething mass of insecurity with multiple mental health problems that he has written about beautifully. Jamie Oliver however was brimming with confidence as a young man, which is his both his character and his self belief in his skills in a very particular area. One went to fee paying schools the other state. You cannot assume fee paying schools give a child confidence I am afraid. Polish is a light covering of something that can cover many other issues going on underneath - polish is about knowing the right thing to say to an adult, knowing what to wear to an interview, or feeling that in a room of young people you are somehow ‘better’ because you went to a few paying school (this isn’t meant in a horrible way but I can assure you this is how I felt after an elite education because our teachers told us we were better and that we would do better. I was quite surprised to find out quickly at uni that I was far from ‘better’) But polish is only on the outside and not on the inside, it can never replace real confidence which for some people takes time, some are born with it. If you speak to HR specialists they can tell you that in the work place the fee paying school ‘polish’ doesn’t stick.. it might get people a job based on an interview, it doesn’t make them good at the job per se, it doesn’t make them easy to manage in a job, it doesn’t guarantee that they will succeed. If you were to meet my friend who was abused at a top boarding school as a child you would think he was the definition of polish - well spoken, can hold cocktail party chat with anyone about anything and has beautiful manners but he has, of course, unbelievable mental health problems that years of therapy can help but not erase and is without a glimmer of true confidence. Or my extended family member who has beautiful table manners but has treated everyone in his life abysmally. Manners mask many things, polish is merely a light application that can temporarily hide the glitches in the wood underneath but is not actually part of the furniture. Dealing with a teens mental health is hard work for parents, you have to hold to our nerve many times but it really is not made better by a fee paying school. OP you might find the time comes to do what therapists call ‘doing a geographical’ and move your daughter to another school (but don’t assume only a fee paying one will be right, look at the environment not the sector although private will widen your search)- but she will take her problems and her personality with her and it might not be the end of the issues. I would be tempted to work with her through this time that most posters agree is the peak of difficulty for young girls in all institutions and then make a decision re schools for 6th form when she is more stable again. Good luck you sound like a lovely Mum.

Meh. I think polish is the confidence of a young person.

I went to a private school from the age of 7, but the last three years of secondary school were really bad for me due to bullying. It triggered a lot of my depression and suicidal feelings . I honestly wish my parents had changed schools but they hardly even noticed.

Change schools for her if you think it would help.

Year 8/9 are really difficult ages for girls. I went to a private school and I remember an awful lot of sarcasm, backchat and catty comments at that age - not because everyone was horrible, more because we’d all just discovered it as a skill and were trying it out. Still hurtful though. I actually had a really nice class (we were known as the nice class!) but it still went through a less than lovely phase.

I agree that so much depends on the particular group in her particular class and that there can be nicer or less nice groups anywhere.

I would keep encouraging her to find different groups. If necessary could you ask to move her to a different class within the year?

I’m also a big believer in extra curricular (drama, sport, etc) as a way to have another group of friends outside school - so that if/when there is a friendship issue at school at least she has alternatives.

Although for example now when not at school she is transformed at times and full of beans, laughing and joking with her sister.

This is exactly my experience with dd in year 8 this holidays too.

I think polish is the confidence of a young person.

This lack of understanding explains so much.

Personally, I think the polish can actually be very damaging because it can mask so much insecurity and unhappiness underneath, and parents are fooled into thinking that their children are confident even when that is very far from the truth. Flourandeggs highlights the distinction very well.

MrsMiaWallis.

My kids are at state and my neices and nephews went private.

Out of the 8 cousins there are 3 whole do the phone thing and 5 who don't. 2 of the 3 went private. It is 100% due to their personality.

2 of mine are charming conversationalists when with other people's parents. One is much quieter and hides behind her phone.
One nephew is monosyllabic and a screen hider, he went private. Now at 19 he is growing in confidence and much better.

It is really just extraordinary that you persist in this stereotype. I have my kids friends round often and they are all, without exception polite and chatty and nice to me. And when my state educated kids meet up, they have far better things to do than sit and screen scroll.

Attitudes like your stink actually, as they presume things about people before meeting them. Itis attitudes like that which make people select privately educated people for roles, just based on their school.

I went private. I cannot tell you how many of those girls were seething mass of insecurity underneath. Many felt rejected and dumped by their families in boarding school. Yes, many of them, (liek Steven Fry in the example above) had been taught how to behave in certain social sitiuations, but it was a veneer.
Same is obviously true of many kids from state.

As I have said before, fundamentally I think the family is more significant in how happy or not a child is.

If she’d benefit from smaller classes and a smaller environment where it’s less easy to disappear then yes, this is easier to find in the private sector at senior level.

Beyond this you are just going to get a load of anecdotal experiences posted here.

It is really just extraordinary that you persist in this stereotype

I made it very clear that this was my experience. Exactly the same anecdotal information as you have given. For some reason your experience is valid, but mine isn't?

@AlexaShutUp

I think polish is the confidence of a young person.

This lack of understanding explains so much.

Personally, I think the polish can actually be very damaging because it can mask so much insecurity and unhappiness underneath, and parents are fooled into thinking that their children are confident even when that is very far from the truth. Flourandeggs highlights the distinction very well.

And a lot of the time, happy confidence in children doesn't mask anything, it's just the sign of a happy confident person.