Impossible question - but do you think children in private schools are ‘happier’?

[Diddlysquatty]

I’ve posted a bit about my yr 8 Dd.
High flier confident and bright and primary, she’s not enjoying her large (1500) ofsted outstanding state academy secondary.
She’s become quite down, self conscious, and had friendship issues. She’s not very motivated with school work and tends to do the minimum. Dismisses a lot of subjects as boring and says they don’t matter as she won’t do them for gcse anyway. Marks are ok but achievement has slipped a bit. Obviously impossible to say what role lockdown has played.

I’d offered her the option of changing schools at the height of the friendship issues (she’s in a bit of a toxic foursome) but she said she wouldn’t like to start again somewhere.

We’re coming into some money that means private would probably be possible and my mum apparently said to my husband over xmas, when asking after Dd, that they’d like to help if we wanted to move her.

He’s keen on the idea from an academic perspective. I think he thinks in a smaller, private school they’d pick up on and help with lack of motivation, and filling any gaps from lockdown.

I’m just not sure whether we should even consider it.

The pressure at school is one of the things she complains about - she’s in top sets and in a tutor group that’s doing a special language immersion stream (supposedly) so is with generally more able people.
Surely this aspect would be worse at an academically selective secondary?

Could they really help with motivation or would it make no difference?

It does sound like the teachers are beaten down where she is but there’s no guarantee this would be different at private is there?

I know that some people choose private for academic or social reasons, but what about well-being? Are kids more likely to come out well balanced and resilient, or is the opposite true if there is more competition, issues of wealth etc?

I know I’m asking the impossible but would appreciate thoughts.

I went to a small private all girls school and there were definitely lots of mental health issues going on there!

I know my husband doesn’t agree but I’m not so fussed about grades - apart from the extent to which this would boost her - but most of all I want her to be happy and feel like she’s fulfilling her potential

To be blunt....Yes.

Because if the child’s not happy they’re more likely to leave, and the school loses their money.

It does obviously depend on the school and the child but, as a general rule, it is going to be more of a priority for a school where students are paying money to attend.

I think Y8 is a really tough year. And probably worse this year as they spent so much of Y7 learning remotely. It's typically the time when they all look at the friends they made in Y7 and decide they don't really like them, so friendship groups move about. Many girls especially are hitting puberty. The maturity gap between boys and girls is probably largest at this point (I swear my DD spent the whole of Y8 moaning about the boys). In short a lot of stuff going on.

Are children in private school happier? I would suspect that some are and some aren't, and this is more down to the personality of the children, the individual schools and other things going on around them, than the school sector. My state school educated children are certainly far happier than I was at my private school, but I'm not sure I would have been any happier at a different school.

My experience with both my children was that they found Y8 tough and things got better in Y9 (and some of this was due to being able to drop subjects they didn't like; some of it was just due to maturity; some was due to making better friendship groups.

So, if you're looking to the private school to make your daughter happier, I wouldn't. If you want private for other reasons, obviously this is a good time to move.

I went to private and have used both for dc

Bullying or milder friendship issues can happen anywhere

Affordability is a factor as if you’re not left with much after fees it can be hard

Sometimes non selective schools can develop the idea that if you’re smart you are a swot or whatever which is a great shame for a child who likes learning

Peers are important. It can even be the same as some cross between sectors

In an area with high house prices it will impact too

Overall no I don’t think it makes much difference to my dc although maybe it did me - but I was happier when streaming occurred as there was the odd sarky comment re grades

I’d say look at it from affordability POV and right school for the child

@MrsMiaWallis

Joining in year 9 is fine as loads join then from other schools

Admittedly it was a while ago but when I was at school there wasn't a time that loads of new girls stared in any year (maybe there are regional differences depending on the school system) and new owners almost without exception struggled to fit and find friendship groups.

Bottom line is that as you've said in your title this is a question that simply doesn't have an answer. All the personal experiences in the world tell you nothing about how your child would fare.

She might still lack motivation at private school! Also bear in mind that if its a good one she night not be in the top sets. This didn't bother dd3, she was in top set English at the state and is now in set 2 at the independent despite getting 7/8s in tests.

At her school they will do their damndest to get you interested in something extra curricular, but there are still a few that slip through the net. Dd3 has turned out to be really good at lacrosse of all things despite being in state education from reception to year 8! She loves it and it's given her loads of motivation

@Curioushorse

To be blunt....Yes.

Because if the child’s not happy they’re more likely to leave, and the school loses their money.

It does obviously depend on the school and the child but, as a general rule, it is going to be more of a priority for a school where students are paying money to attend.

I'm not sure this is actually true. I see quite a few parents assuming private school must be better because they are paying money for it, and therefore don't actually question whether another school would be preferable. That was certainly my own experience - I was miserable at my private school, but my parents were fixated on how much money they were paying to give me this wonderful experience and so I felt obliged to knuckle down and get on with it.

It does obviously depend on the school and the child but, as a general rule, it is going to be more of a priority for a school where students are paying money to attend.

No, it's the parents who are the priority for the private schools to keep happy, as they are the ones paying the bills. And you cannot always assume that the parents and children are on the same page as one another...I know a couple of kids who are desperate to leave the schools that their parents have chosen for them, but their parents have a different set of priorities.

My dd was v unhappy in private primary and is transformed in state secondary.

My dis has just moved from private primary to state secondary and is struggling.

Neither of these things can be attributed to state/private, more to to with individual circumstances, friendship groups, supportive key staff eg form tutors/heads of year etc.

Both dh and I are teachers with experience in private and state and would say there’re mental health issues in both. As you admit, it’s impossible to say if one environment over the other is better.

From my experience of my dd, I would say that that a change can be hugely beneficial. For my dd that was private to state, but for your dd that could be state to private. If she is interested in moving and you can afford it, I would def consider making the change. My dds move was led my her, even down to choosing the super rough comp down the road and I think that ownership was v important to her,

Good luck, I hope you find an outcome that works for your dd.

I know a couple of kids who are desperate to leave the schools that their parents have chosen for them, but their parents have a different set of priorities

How do you know this? Are you a priest?

Have you spoken to your DD's current school? Perhaps there are things that can be put in place there that wouldn't mean starting again but might change the dynamics e.g. switching form groups, moving her from the language stream or even just flagging her up as someone who isn't on anyone's radar but needs to be.

Lots of children of this age give up activities they'd been into previously and this year has hardly been conducive to picking up new hobbies so that may not be helping her mood. If you've got money that could be used for education, is there something allied it could be put towards e.g. online tutoring for a subject she's worried about, thermals and decent gear so you can go out on family bike rides/walks?

I went to a semi-private school (common in my home country, you pay the equivalent of £50 a month but get a private education), and I loved how small it was.

We were 300 students in secondary and the teachers knew every single one of us by name. That meant they also knew where we were academically, who needed to be pushed and who needed extra support. It was a 3-18 school so they knew our parents, our siblings, our whole history. Newcomers integrated very quickly and we had quite a few new people coming in Y9, as that's when you could start boarding.

But I'd say it depends on the school and the staff. I believe it's easier for a small school to motivate each student individually, but that doesn't mean large secondaries can't achieve that. It's just less likely.

I was extremely happy at my school, because they knew what I needed and how to push me. Each teacher cared deeply about my progress. I think that's what we should look for when choosing our children's schools - be that state or private.

How do you know this? Are you a priest?

Erm, no. Why a priest?

I know because they tell us!

I think @RedskyAtnight has it spot on about Year 8. Y8 often seems a difficult year for many children in 'normal' times and this year the year group missed out on so much of the transition and cementing of secondary routines due to lockdown in March.

That said, if you think DD may be happier elsewhere, the first step would be to look objectively at the alternative options. Try to discount the glossy brochure stuff and think about the questions that are important to you about the teaching, class sizes, friendship groups, curriculum, sport/music/drama, ratio of girls:boys, results.

Most schools will be able to talk through how they help new students to feel included and support where they may be behind in certain subjects. What's probably more difficult is to understand the dynamics of a particular year group - my teacher friends (state and private) will both talk about some year groups just being more 'difficult' than others but the school is unlikely to tell you this!

Do you know any parents with DC in those schools? Are there any local FB sites where you might get any insight from current parents?

I also know children at private schools (well, my children do) who hate them, but feel obliged to keep quiet or have to put up with it as they know their parents are paying lots of money to send them there.

DS has a friend who he met in sixth form. Friend had previously been to a private school. When I queried why he'd moved to the sixth form (which is not the sort of sixth form that privately educated secondary school children would normally move to) DS told me that his friend had loathed the school but couldn't do anything about it as his parents assumed it was amazing because of the money they were paying. Friend had kicked up a fuss and insisted that he moved at sixth form.

Of course there are plenty of children who hate their state school as well. But absolutely disagree that children in private schools must be happy because they'd move otherwise.

Weirdly, despite knowing well over 100 private school kids and their parents, I don't know any who hate their school but whose parents insist they go because they are paying for it. I've known a couple who have moved schools (to other private schools) and are happier. I know a couple who went to state 6th form and were happier (but fucked up their A levels- this is anecdotal not saying this always happens)

In fact I can't imagine a situation where I would KNOW that a child hated their school and also know that their parents insist they stay unhappy because they are paying for it.

Sounds like the issue is you would like more pastoral care than an issue of private vs state.

First it's best to approach the school, and if they still do nothing, look seriously into a change. Though I think a good school should have picked up on your DD by now.

Maybe you list some schools that are available to you and ask what the pastoral is like, if too outing maybe NC and ask away here on MN. It's all about the individual schools and how they fit your DD.

I was extremely happy at my school, because they knew what I needed and how to push me. Each teacher cared deeply about my progress yes this is what dd3 loves about her school

In fact I can't imagine a situation where I would KNOW that a child hated their school and also know that their parents insist they stay unhappy because they are paying for it.

That's great that you don't know anyone in that situation, but unfortunately, it does happen. Lots of parents think they know what's best for their kids, for all sorts of reasons.

there is a whole range of schools out there and it really depends on where you live and what options you have, you need to do the groundwork really,

it's however quite safe to assume that one would be happier where one has more space, better facilities, a great range of extra curricular and better adult ratios, a more homogenous student base that is a good match.

I would really first and foremost call on her current school on their pastoral care. the current times are difficult for everyone and they have a duty to help her in the first place.

Lots of parents think they know what's best for their kids, for all sorts of reasons im sure they do, but if the kids are unhappy then in my experience they listen. Are you some sort of school counsellor?

I don't know what kind of relationship you would have to know unequivocally both sides of the story.

I teach in a small indie and we take lots of ex state school kids who have had a tough time (for various reasons) at their state school. We take new pupils in every year group and I honestly think our pupils are more happy than many at big state schools.

Our school’s ethos is on the children being happy. Once they are, they are then in a position to learn and make good progress. I have also taught in several state schools and I think that a number of pupils (including myself) would have really benefited from being at a school like the one I teach in.

Every school is different though, so I would be tempted to look around at the indies and get your DD to have taster days to see what she thinks. I wouldn’t rule out other state schools but I would look at them carefully - an over-subscribed, “outstanding” school isn’t necessarily one where all children are happy and confident.

In a nutshell, figure out what your DD needs and try to find the best fit - whether state or indie.

I just asked DD 16 about this, she has a lot of friends at 4 different State schools as well as her Private school friends
She says that she thinks the big difference at her school is that the teachers have the time and resources to treat each one of them as an individual (paraphrasing here) and that the majority of the teachers seem very interested in them. It’s not unusual for a teacher to call me if they think she seemed a bit down in a Teams call and a couple of teachers have called round to drop things off when she was in isolation
I’m not saying State school teachers can’t or don’t want to do the same but I think when you have much fewer pupils to deal with and no major behaviour issues it must be easier to do the “softer” parts of the job

All really helpful food for thought, thank you.

She is now linked into pastoral care at her current school and is attending a weekly group where they are apparently going to look at things like anxiety, friendship, stress etc.

Totally agree it has to be led by her - since she’s become quite self conscious and shy (think head forward so hair and mask covers face) the thought of being the only new girl is probably going to be daunting for her, but if I was convinced it was the right thing then I would encourage her not to use that solely as a reason not to.

So hard to know if we should stick with where we are and things will improve when she starts options next year (they start gcse subjects in year 9), or if we should seriously consider a move at this stage. Feel like once gcse courses have started it becomes a bit late.

I think whoever said about “being seen” has a good point - it’s harder to feel that when the school is so big and the termly reports we get are all numbered and coded without any actual written comments. Plus as I said - having 2 different teachers splitting lessons for one subject doesn’t help.

I guess if I thought she could go to a small friendly environment, with excellent and inspiring and consistent teaching and good morale amongst staff (I know I know... so tricky at the moment), where she’s pushed to fulfil her potential without feeling pressured or comparing herself to very academic peers, and where there were friendly and non bitchy girls, an inclusive attitude to sport (she loathes PE) and pastoral care if needed, it would be really worth it.

I don't know what kind of relationship you would have to know unequivocally both sides of the story.

Various different scenarios.

In two cases, I've heard it all from the parents (old uni friends) who have been offloading about their struggles to persuade their dc that they're best off staying in the schools where they are, even though dc are apparently convinced that they would be happier elsewhere.I haven't heard it directly from the kids, but can't imagine why the parents would make that kind of thing up. In both cases, the parents are concerned about their dc's unhappiness but believe (rightly or wrongly) that their kids will thank them in the longer term for making them stick it out. Time will tell, I guess, but I do know more than one adult who still resents their parents 30 years later for making them stay in a school where they were desperately unhappy.

In another case, I hear the dd's perspective through my dd but I also know the mum. The dd tells my dd how she has begged her parents to let her move. The mum has told me that her dd thinks the grass would be greener elsewhere, but she feels it would be disruptive to move the child now.

In another case, I have only heard the child's perspective, but she is clearly very unhappy (self harming etc) and desperately wants to move to a different environment but apparently her parents won't entertain the idea. I don't know what their rationale is, and of course, the child might be equally unhappy wherever she went, but the fact remains that she hasn't been moved.

I'm not saying there aren't just as many kids at state schools who might be equally desperate to move. Merely disagreeing with the assertion that kids at private schools are more likely to move if they are unhappy. Judging by the number of adults I know who hated their private school experience, I don't think that's a sensible assumption to make.