DC's and private school: do you explain to them about school fees?

[wanderings]

I was asked by my parents which secondary school I wanted to go to, after a few visits to various schools. I happened to choose the one which was a private school, with an entrance exam. I didn't actually know that my parents were paying fees for it until I was in year 8. (Should I have known about this, aged 11?) And I didn't realise until much later what a small percentage it is of children who do go to private schools.

While in a way I understand my parents' decision not to let the issue of fees influence which school I liked best (they rarely explained about big money matters unless I asked), I'm not sure if ignorance was bliss, and I can't help wondering if I had known from the start that it was an expensive school, if I might have worked harder in my earlier years there. (I didn't really start working hard until year 10; there were lots of battles between me and parents about schoolwork!)

Good points teacher.

I was coming on to say that education doesn't only happen within school and what happens in the home is a major factor. Taking out families where there is deliberate neglect or where drug/alcohol issues are present, there are also parents raising children who need support to learn how to parent as they didn't learn that from their own parents. non deliberate neglect in a way as they genuinely love and care for their children but just aren't doing their best for them due to lack of knowledge.

I come from a background where as far as my parents were concerned, education happened in school and they didn't interfere/help/support. That wasn't due to lack of care, they just raised their children they same way they were raised. My DF grew up in a children's home and my DM was one of 11 children. I also come from a large family. Anyway, we were all bright kids and were able to break the cycle to an extent through employment and adult study. However I still see parents (in my DCs former primary which has a very mixed catchment) that clearly love their kids but would never think of reading to them or playing maths games etc.

I think there needs to be a lot done with early intervention in families to ensure that kids get the best start and are ready to learn. When all teachers (private and state) are sitting with kids who are ready to learn with a decent breakfast in their bellies and support at home and with sufficient extra help in the classroom for children with Extra needs, then we can maybe start making comparisons as to the extra success of private schooling.

"I don't think that target grades of A* in every subject, and an 8 and a 9 in the two subjects he'll be doing the new GCSEs in are evidence that there is "no push ensuring very capable pupils attain good grades"?"

My DS has similar, if not quite so stellar, targets in his state school. A school that most Mumsnetters would do a 10 mile detour to avoid even driving past. With 37% FSM and 7% high achievers.

There are crap state schools, of course there are. But not as many as would appear from the judgements on here. And the published results only tell a tiny fraction of the story.

Ironically, the sort of kids who go to private schools tend to be the ones least in need of what they can offer!

Ha ha Bertrand.
Its about 60 mins. in total - not excessive.But it was a shock initially.Especially for Dyslexic DS who takes longer to complete his work.

This appears to be a fairly standard approach for schools achieving pretty good results.I've been looking at a few for future reference and this was the norm.

"Ironically the kids who go to private schools tend to be the ones least I need of what it can offer"
As someone sitting in the catchment area of an outstanding high achieving state school I don't completely agree with that statement but it is certainly a very valid point. Plenty of the most disadvanted would really benefit in many ways from the sort of education a top independent school can provide,

It's about recognising that all children are individuals. Ime that doesn't necessarily happen in state schools where there is a tendency to drag everyone down rather than everyone up.

When my DD attended an outstanding state comprehensive it was inculcated with a culture of excuses for poor behaviour based on background. Every child had to suffer low level disruption because of this, because it was all about inclusion. It wasn't, it was about excusing unspeakable behaviour and the failure to deal with it. My in-laws were from indescribably poor backgrounds. Their schools supported them to better themselves and to achieve in spite of the backgrounds rather than allowing them to fail because of them. Alan Bennett was quite posh and well looked after compared to my FIL.

I just hate to see bitterness towards others who have more. I think that energy is better used positively to make sure more people rise than to drag those who have succeeded down.

There were options that were avoided at GCSE because of poor teaching that didn't get addressed. There was a subject every year that was poorly taught. The leadership was weak, the school was deteriorating. It was graded outstanding by Ofsted during this time because it produced the right paperwork and managed to misrepresent itself for a very few days. Teaching was graded as good. If teaching was only good, how did the overall grade get to outstanding.

The independent, mixed intake, had an entirely different culture and ethos. It's results weren't better but it was happier (and golly it's been complained about on these threads) and overall the children were better educated and pastorally better cared for.

Apologies for paras in an odd order but can't cut and paste,on phone.

2 subjects a night, strict homework timetable is standard here.

I did rather wince at 'lazy class teacher in year 6'. As you will know, there is little evidence that homework at primary age has any influence on outcomes. Although of course there ARE lazy teachers in every sector, they are genuinely quite rare in state primaries because of the level of observation and micromanagement. Much more likely that she was doing lots of stuff that wasn't directly visible to you (and may not have been of direct benefit to children either, but that is not the teacher's fault).

Would i prefer a teacher who prepares and delivers tailored lessons for their particular class, differentiated for children's different needs and with exciting resources to accompany them; feeds back on class work quickly and thoroughly (whether verbally or in writing); assesses regularly and adapts teaching and support to suit; spends time sorting out any problems that arise through meetings with parents and other professionals after school; prepares exciting displays and interesting enrichment activities .. or one who marks homework? Obviously 'Does everything [and produces world peace] is the IDEAL, but I would put marking homework down as a lower priority, in terms of actually making a difference to how well a child learns and makes progress, than many other things a teacher can spend time on.

I'm sure there are good state schools teacher .I've been very willing to support the state system and all 4 of my children were in the state system for many years.I've also had experience of a absolutely dire private school overseas ( international school).

Unfortunately our local state options are not great.I really don't believe that private schools only take the ones that don't need it.My children's private schools have a complete range of different abilities.Several have moved from state schools for a variety of reasons after having become somewhat disillusioned.Mediocre careerist headmasters also running more than one school have been responsible for our increasingly soulless schools.Yes,schools have become increasingly politicised.

I was aware that my parents paid for my school but I think it was because my best friend didn't pay for school and I asked my mum why she couldn't go to my school I remember being told her family couldn't afford it.

Those saying they can't imagine being 11 and not being aware that some schools are fee paying and some schools aren't, it entirely depends on the area you live in. When I first started school I lived in Knowsley (google how deprived it is if you like) I doubt many children in that area had a clue about paying for schools

"Mediocre careerist headmasters also running more than one school"

Actually, that's often been because no-one wants to become a head because the pressure is so intense (I can name 2x breakdowns, and a suicide amongst my personal acquaintance of heads)...again, as you say, from political pressure, usually because of the total misunderstanding of the effect that context can have on the absolute results of a school.

I take your point vis a vis primary but what about homework in secondary that is not marked. What about when there is insufficient feedback for the child? What about when a child plummets two grades because teaching is so poor it switches them off. Maths, year 8. We turned it round because we had £40 pw to tutor. Parents offered to club together for an after school tutor and to subsidise those who couldn't afford it. The head said there wasn't a problem and such a suggestion was against her principles.

"I don't really believe that private schools only take the ones that don't need it"
Neither do I obviously, DS's school offers him things that neither I nor that state sector can provide. But I agree that disadvanted children could benefit enormously from the chance to attend an independent school.

"I just hate to see bitterness towards others who have more. "

Oh, please don't use the b-word. It's only a short step to the jealousy word and then someone will start talking about "chips on shoulders" and before we know it all discussion will be impossible.

That's,an interesting point teacher having experienced both systems I have to disagree.

The thing is,, Beaufort, it is school-dependent, and area dependent.

The teaching in your private school may well be better than in your state school - especially in Maths.

Locally to me, the state schools are very good, and the private schools less academic, so the situation is reversed.

None of us can make a 'total sector' comparison, because we simply don't have the knowledge. that would need e.g. an HMI or similar, who had been into many of both types of school.

Ironically the kids who go to private schools tend to be the ones least I need of what it can offer

With my cynical head on, my take is that not all those who are paying are children with the highest academic ability. Some parents are paying in order to ensure that a previously mediocre student attains better in the smaller less disruptive classes. I don't think it is pure altruism that the private schools offer scholarships/bursaries to very bright children of lesser wealth (I know there are reasons of charitable status too) as it maintains their overall academic results. That seems to be true for our local private anyway.

However I think the benefits of private school are not necessarily academic. The "old boy" network in terms of opportunities after school is probably the major advantage.

Teacher when you've witnessed your daughter in tears because she spent hours doing a poster that the teacher didn't even collect .When your DS is consistently not writing complete sentences and is criticised for not writing enough In essays but is never corrected .And the teacher finds it amusing that he has been diagnosed as Dyslexic.I think for my DS the whole year was a waste of time.I only wish this teacher had been spending time on interesting lesson plans rather than copying out of books.

"The "old boy" network in terms of opportunities after school is probably the major advantage."

Apart from 4-possibly 5 schools, any parent paying for private education with this in mind is going to be sady disappointed!

Or for us we were told to keep her "slow down" and leave her sitting in the class for the whole year without learning anything and dying for play time.

No one said it loud but then the implication is: it is a state school, free(no state school in this country is free as we pay huge tax for them), what you expect. Oh there could be campaign etc etc but it also means it wont happen in my daughter schooling time.

We dont have rich parents/grand parents (or rather opposite) so having to pay (again as we already paid via our tax) for my children education make us think hard.

Many good private are selective or super selective which I like the most so pls dont assume that people who send their children there purely because they have money. The most important thing is to pass the tests first it doesnt matter how rich you are(and then yes you will have to pay the fees). And of course there are privates which might not be as academic etc etc...but then I am not interested in these ones

Interesting isn't it, that crap state schools are crap because they are state schools, but crap private schools are crap because they are just an individual crap school........

Mine go to a crap private school!

Obviously it wasnt crap when we first chose it but its pretty awful now.

Desperate for oldest dd to go to local state for 6th form but she's scared to leave - partly because head of year rubbishes the local state! and partly because she doesn't like change.

I regret not moving her there sooner.

"The "old boy" network in terms of opportunities after school is probably the major advantage."

Apart from 4-possibly 5 schools, any parent paying for private education with this in mind is going to be sady disappointed!

I suspect even at "those" schools the advantage is wildly overestimated by some.

"The old boy network in terms of opportunities after is probably a major advantage.
Apart from 4 possibly 5 schools any parent paying for private education with this I mind is going to be sadly disappointed"
I could not agree more Hocus DH went to one of those 4 it hasn't made a blind bit of difference to his opportunities, at a recent funeral he met school friends from 30+ years ago it hadn't seemed to have made any difference to their oppritunites either.
It's all about your parents and who they know.

I think there is little back scratching just because if where one went to school.

However, what many schools offer is a very tight community. Especially in ones outside London.

The parents get to know one another very well indeed and would very willingly give help to other children. And they're usually the sorts of parents with stuff to offer.