DC's and private school: do you explain to them about school fees?

[wanderings]

I was asked by my parents which secondary school I wanted to go to, after a few visits to various schools. I happened to choose the one which was a private school, with an entrance exam. I didn't actually know that my parents were paying fees for it until I was in year 8. (Should I have known about this, aged 11?) And I didn't realise until much later what a small percentage it is of children who do go to private schools.

While in a way I understand my parents' decision not to let the issue of fees influence which school I liked best (they rarely explained about big money matters unless I asked), I'm not sure if ignorance was bliss, and I can't help wondering if I had known from the start that it was an expensive school, if I might have worked harder in my earlier years there. (I didn't really start working hard until year 10; there were lots of battles between me and parents about schoolwork!)

Dunno Hilda.

Maybe it's because we are at a state school. Kids are told, "no we cannot afford that, sorry." And this is the entry point that kids thinking and wondering and trying to understand "why" and inevitably discussing with other kids. It's not their only interest by far. But it comes up, and once it comes up I don't think they are uncouth to pursue it. It's my job to help them understand that it is not polite to discuss. How would they know otherwise?

These are all worthy sentiments but the plain fact is that independent schools will soon be populated only by the very rich and by those in receipt of charity. It will then be pointless pretending that wealth doesn't matter. You will fall into one of those two camps. The middle is leaving in droves right now.

Sadly bojo it appears that in 2015 it appears bursaries at Rugby are only offered to scholars.

"the middle is leaving in droves"
But granola interestingly that not what this article quoted up thread said.

happygardening not true about rugby. There are two entirely separate types of bursaries there. Normal ones and Arnold Foundation ones. And then scholarships. AND the head has the right to up the normal scholarship amount anyway in individual cases.

Settling but that's asking you and you explaining , not talking to peers in the playground.I wouldn't ask someone how much their mortgage was , or how much their holiday cost , or their car etc. And the same goes for school fees .

Of course if they ask me we will discuss it and Iam happy to chat but I do not expect them to talk to others about how much their school costs

marmite according to their website the Arnold foundation is only for day pupils living within a 10 mile radius of the school it appears that those looking for boarding will only be considered if they win a scholarship or perhaps I'm misreading it?

I don't think a family income of 200k makes one 'super rich elite'.

I mean obviously it's a nice lump of pretty green but it doesn't put you in money no object territory especially with high house prices, pension contributions and school fees for two or more kids.

sheGot

speak for yourself 200k would take some people years to achieve, it's pretty 'super rich elite' to me.
I suppose it depends on many factors how you determine somebodies wealth

Of course it's a big salary, no denying it.

But how much is it after tax and NI? 100k?

Lop off 36k for school fees for two kids and then mortgage and then pension contribution. Maybe a nanny?

You're not left with the sort of cash that means you can sprinkle diamond dust from your hellicopter!

I think if your children have always attended private schools the cost of the school is not really an issue.My children came up against some serious issues when they informed their friends that were moving from the local state school to a private school.My 9 year old has just informed me his friends felt sorry for us having to pay for him to go to his new school.He has also stated they don't discuss school fees in the new school but his friends wanted to know how much they were in the local school.
I think the middle are not leaving in droves but not even starting.Most of the doctors,solicitors,local business men send their children to our local school.They can't afford to privately educate them.If they do its a real sacrifice.
I am really surprised by the number of parents who think it's rude to discuss financial issues with their children.Of course discussing mortgages and salaries are not on.Though in my kids prep school there are several boys boasting about their Dads salaries or land or tennis courts.

happygardening Yes, numbers of pupils at independent schools have risen slightly overall, though that hides the fact that plenty of schools have struggled to survive, particularly outside the home counties. Liverpool College and a few others have made the sensible decision to join the state.

Many boarding schools depend on rich Chinese and Russian pupils now and the most sought after day schools in London attract the international super rich for whom the English traditions of modesty and discretion about wealth have little or no value.

SheGot an annual household income of £200k gross is immense. That sort of money is rarely "earned". It's often profit shares, bonuses, income from inherited wealth. Lucky people but schools used to cater for a wider clientele.

DD(10) will hopefully be joining her brother's school next year. I was a bit surprised a couple of weeks ago when she asked if private school meant we had to pay. Someone in her class had asked her and she said she didn't know!

I didn't think we'd made a secret of it and have been very open about the fees with DS, but she clearly hadn't picked up on it/been interested. As far as she was aware, private schools were just schools where you had to sit an entrance exam.

DS(13) has a rough idea of the fees and he knows how we fund them.

SheGot an annual household income of £200k gross is immense. That sort of money is rarely "earned". It's often profit shares, bonuses, income from inherited wealth.

Huh? The majority of families at our secondary school have both parents working outside the home and need two incomes to pay the fees.

200k = 2 x 100k. Many graduate professions could reasonably be earning 100k working full-time at the age of 45+ (which many secondary school parents will be): doctors (consultant level), headteachers, actuaries, solicitors, accountants, engineers,..... particularly in London/SE: outside those areas average school fees are lower and presumably so are average household incomes of parents.

Moreover, according to the statistics quoted above, the vast majority of private school parents don't earn 200k+: they have gross household incomes in the range of 50k to 200k. So while undoubtedly most households sending to private schools have incomes within the top 10 or 20%, most are not super-rich, particularly when you look at schools outside the M25.

My own DC's school is full of the children of graduate professionals such as those listed above, with both parents working. I know very few ultra-rich kids whose parents live off inherited wealth or bonuses.

getoff You're right about salaried professionals not even starting with private schools. Those who have done so have had their fingers burned by inflation busting fee rises in the last few years and will be the last of their kind to choose private. The ISC stats confirm this: the trend is towards the super rich and the schools will scour the world for them.

And an ISC poll has also disclosed that for the first time fewer than half of all parents would send their DC to a private school if they could afford it. Such is the stigma now attaching to these schools as they pander to the super rich.

dusquisitiones what professions pay salaries of that order except to a lucky few at the top of them? Uni professors, headteachers, salaried lawyers and accountants don't get paid as much as £100k. Not on my planet anyway.

A newly qualified lawyer in London will earn approx £75,000, £200,000 is certainly not unearned income , plenty of company directors , hospital consultants will earn £100k .

I think you need to distinguish between The top public schools and the vast majority of independent day schools .The top public schools increasingly rely on the super rich , an independent day school is more the preserve of the graduate professions , ds friends parents are teachers, IT consultants , architects, dentists, company directors, lawyers, accountants , doctors .

happygardening yes, I agree it's misleading. But thankfully it doesn't seem to affect the result of what they do.
I love Rugby. Not only the only decent boarding school I know (professionally) that does co-ed properly, they also have an amazing bursary system that equivalent schools simply don't.
I wish they sold that better tbh. The flack they got from a recent post on here about bursary they offered a child from a state school was unfair.

Hilda a tiny number of US law firms in London pay newly qualified lawyers as much as £75k pa (check out RollOnFriday). Most will be on c£50 to £60k going up to £75k after a few years by which time their partner might have gone part time to spend more time with the young DC. £200k is a long way off for them but families like that used to be able to afford private schools. The trends are such that private means (the rich grandparents who keep getting mentioned on these threads) are required these days for what has become, and is being sold as, a luxury.

ONS and others publish analysis of incomes and only a very small proportion of people, even in the south east, earn the big fat salaries like that.

I talk to my DD (8) factually about money stuff, eg taxes are paid to pay for public services, that some people rent cars, flats and houses and others can borrow lots from a bank and pay it back gradually. That some people have lots or little money for different and complicated reasons.

That some schools (including hers) charge fees. And for others people get their children in by paying lots more for housing, attending church or doing well in entrance tests.

We both work in long hours and stressful jobs between me and my husband and the total gross income(everything) could be close to the £200k but we do spend so much more on: a full time nanny, a big mortgage, many extra activities(there is almost a play, concert etc every month and recently almost every week), we are foreigner so we have to budget for going home visiting grand parents both sides. We live a modest normal life and still pack our lunch, hardly go out unless its must, eating out only every other week. We have 2 other big holidays each year one could be over sea. And still I feel like we will be very tight once my daughter starts secondary and if she could have a place in a good private school. The income could grow a little but then so is inflation and other costs.

Among both of us I dont know that there are many family both parents doing long hours, most our friends or colleagues either have 1 like us only(however we are not very senior as there are senior people who earn more than our combination on average-not mentioning the actual bankers who bonus could be millions).

Leaving in SW london it looks like tge only choice for us is working harder to be able to fund for our kids as there is only 1 grammar and I am not even sure if I want to send my kids there (even if she could get a place)

Exactly, Duckdeamon, and I tell my DC that not so long ago independent schools were better led than they are now.

I have a dd attending a private school, and a ds who attends a grammar so no fees to pay for him. I do remind dd that we pay fees if I need to motivate her to revise for tests or get on with her homework- something subtle along the lines of "we're paying for this so for heavens sake get on with your work!!!!"

DH and I chose the primary school and made the decision to pay fees. Because that decision was made with no involvement from the DC we have never discussed fees. The DC know friends at loads of different schools through clubs and Cubs, that to them is just a fact that other kids go to other schools. Nothing to do with whether they pay or not.

It may be a different matter at 11. We will cross that bridge when we get to it. But I have amassing issue with choosing a child's education and then bemoaning its cost if they don't like the school, get the results or whatever.

I havent had my daughters sent to private yet however so many time its so tempting to tell her being more focus and less chatty during her music lesson because each is £65 and its gone so fast. Between each lessons I am also trying not to tell her that if she doesnt practise then she is wasting time and also money and not getting any better. Its so hard. I dont think I could do as well if I have to pay close to £30k a year for her school each year and get very very little back. Well may be its us working so hard to earn this money so we normally look for a way to get smth back!!! If we are more well off then it could be different