Downsizing to educate privately - any pearls?

[Tiredbutstanding]

Here's my (sorry, long) dilemma- do I sell up to go private for secondary or not?

We have attended our school for 3 years. Eldest DD is Y4, and there is STILL no weekly or bi-weekly academic homework and definitely NO maths written sheets. We get 30 mins every 2-3 weeks - mostly to look something up on the internet, and write a few paragraphs. Our 'homework' for this TWO WEEK PERIOD is to cut out a hut from a pattern, and stick some foliage on it for a class project. I kid you not.

My DD has needed extra maths this year as she has gaps in yr 2 and 3 maths which were not spotted until year 4 (along with many other children). We now have a tutor to assist.

I have met with/written to, the head, governors etc, to ask for voluntary homework - to no avail. Subsequently ....as the school does not seem to respect homework, neither do my children!! So when it lands, it is a BATTLE to get them to do it. The first attempt is AWFUL and worries me incredibly that this is what they actually produce at school. Yet when 'encouraged' they do a really good job, and the work is of a high standard. (We do now of course do our own homework to make up the shortfall but as it is 'mum' making them do it, and not the school, it is perceived as less valid and even 'unfair/unnecessary').

Why I don't pull them out and go elsewhere?...because we had SUCH a horrendous time when we moved 3 years ago. Also, to be fair to the Head, the year 6 results for the school are good and he says to 'have faith'. It is true that their maths results were 100% Level 4 maths, and about 50% Level 5. So a small miracle may happen - hence we'll stay at this school and do our best for them via home learning.

But for secondary - should we sell the house, and downsize to go private (to a non selective private school). I fear that this LACK of self discipline (that the school is, if not engendering, at least not preventing) is potentially going to fail both DD's at secondary- just when you need to be well motivated to flourish amongst 30 per class, and 8 classes of 30 per year.....

Should say here that if we go private the current lifestyle will have to go too (like many parents). (I went private as my parents knew I was a lazy monkey and I can see the same in my kids!! However it forced me to work hard and later gain a good career......and I've been eternally grateful for this.

Any pearls for me?

What are the secondary schools like near you? Which state school would be the option for your DC and what are they like? Have you actually been to look at the secondary schools options in your area - state and private?

I do wonder about this thinking of because I pay for it it must be better.

State schools - the one in our catchment is very focused on sports- believe it or not! So much so I don't actually know what their specialism is- as their reputation seems to be built on this (like Loughborough I guess). Will find out!

We wouldn't get in to the other two which are out of our catchment (science specialist schools) as they are very heavily oversubscribed within catchment already...

I have visited our catchment school briefly but not had a full tour (our primary linked up for ..you guessed it..sports/dance meetings so we were outside or just in the main hall. The secondary kids were friendly and welcoming which is always a good sign.

It is not the school I'm worried about-more my children/laziness!

Knowing my kids I don't belive they will pull their fingers out, concentrate and work hard. They need an environment where this will be more than encouraged- ie expected.

All I've heard as a primary mum, is that once they are in secondary they are on their own (fair enough). No state school is going to have the time to constantly jolly kids along that are not putting in the right effort. I have experienced this for the past 3 years so am wary of just hoping it all works out by age 16.

Honestly it is not because you pay for it that it is better - would far rather not pay at all (except in taxes) but so far state education has not yielded the best environment/results for us.

Bed beckons!

I think it depends on the school. My DC go to a state junior school and they get detention if their homework is not handed in on time.

They have to do a certain amount of work every day. For instance Year 3 do 15 mins every day. Year 6 do 30 mins of homework per day. It is checked when it is returned and if it isn't done the children get into trouble. There is also very strict monitoring of reading at home.

So my DD is in Year 6. Every week she has spellings (x15) to learn, times tables test to prepare for, a maths sheet, some literacy homework and either topic or science as well. She also has to read everyday too.

My DS1 is in Year 3. He has a maths sheet, literacy homework and spellings, times tables and daily reading to do.

In fact I think they have too much! We have trouble fitting it all in.

Wow glad we don't go to you schol cece. DD does a lot of stuff out of school and would struggle to fit in an actual 30 mins of homework some nights. She is in yr 6 btw. SHe has homework once a week btw.

I don't think OP you should get too hung up on amount of homework set as a barometer of a school's suitability for your child. I would go and have a good look round your catchment school - ask any questions you have and try to speak to the students as well as the teachers.

There is no way anyone here can help you as much as you can help yourself IYSWIM - only you know the details of your school options and your economic situation, and how much of a downsize you could stand.

MY DS1 now yr 10 went to a prep until yr 8 he has been privately educated since yr 1 he had homework every night of the week (he boarded) and the school considered itself to be very academic preparing children for CE. In yr 9 he moved to out excellent local comp. At the prep he probably would have easily met the description of lazy he certainly never pulled his finger out doing literally the bear essentials. He is young for his age and never seemed to take work very seriously I used to despair. At the comp. away from this pushy environment he have never done better.
DS2 (yr 9) on the other hand was and is still in private ed. and is thriving and doing really well. In hindsight I regret not moving DS1 to the comp at 11 and saving myself two years of fees.
It is not cut and dry.

Homework really really doesn't matter- there's research to say that it makes absolutely no difference in primary school. Why is it so important to you?

The environment in a good secondary school ( and obviously some aren't good) is very different- there will setting, for example and your children should be challenged more. Look really carefully at the school- nothing wrong with lots of sport (ironically, that's what a lot of private parents pay for!)

If the school you're thinking of is non selective, remember that it may not be very academic, which seems to be what you're looking for. Don't be distracted by smart uniforms and facilities- dig deep into the results.

And if you do downsize to pay for private, be very clear about how you will feel if your children do not excel academically despite the sacrifice. Knowing that you have disappointed your parents and cost them a lot of money is a big burden to carry into adult life.

My son is still lazy in year 11, but will still come out with pretty good GCSEs, and has a good chance of going to a good university. (Actually he is highly motivated, just not to do school work.)
Doing homework at primary doesn't motivate them to do it at secondary, personally I think not doing it at Primary makes it more novel and motivating at secondary. However not much homework is actually helping you as it gives your children time and energy to be tutored (there really is a limit to how much "learning" time children can put in).
Go and look at the secondaries before even thinking about your decision, reputation really doesn't tell the whole story.

Why on earth are you so hung up on homework? We've been through three education systems due to international moves and the policies have been radically different in each country. In the UK it was all projects (horrible in my experience, make work for parents and little more) in the US it was two hours a night (totally excessive, but at least predictable) and now we are in Canada there is no homework at all except if you don't finish your work in class, and this will be the case right until high school (13 here). The country with the best results in international tests is Canada . As seeker says research has shown that homework at primary age brings no advantage. In my experience it is often quite counterproductive, plus being very difficult for families with two working parents, several children or that pursue other interests.

I'm not sure why you think that homework at primary is about self discipline. In my experience many younger children only do homework when a parent pretty much forces them to do so. ds got into trouble for not handing in some homework in the UK and we were told that this was very bad because homework was about preparing children for the world of work, which I thought was the most ridiculous thing to say of a six year old with ten or more years of education ahead before workign was even a possibility!

I can understand your worry that perhaps your children are missing things. I think that's always a concern for parents, because you don't know what's going on at school and of course it really matters, but the amount of homework isn't a judge of how good or bad a school is. For secondaries I would go and visit, and really research your options, and then consider if you can realistically spare enough money to send two children to a private school for at least five years each and live a non stressed life at he same time.

We have established that you are prepared to move house for better education. Instead of down-sizing, could you move to buy/rent in the catchment of the preferred schools?

I agree with others that your focus on homework is slightly odd and is really no indicator of how the primary school is performing or serving your children. It would be interesting to know against what criteria you are comparing their experience?

However whst I wanted to focusd on was the financial aspects. Exactly how much mponey do you think you can raise by "downsizing"?

I have 2 children in private schools - one Primary and one senior. Here's how it goes: fees are £12,000 a term, and will rise when the younger one goes into senior school. I can expect to pay up to £3000 a year on school trips (not compulsory admittedly) and a good few hundred on replacement uniform bits after the initial hundreds kitting them out. Travel is £150 a term for the older one. If I worked and needed to use after school care this would be £10 a day. There are at least one or two weeks holidays additional to state school holidays when holiday clubs etc are not offered so I would have to cover this in some way if I worked. This will carry on for the next 6years at the very least.

My view is that if this kind of commitment would mean a drastic change in lifestyle then IT IS NOT WORTH IT. You sound like a committed and focussed parent. Being able to offer experiences such as travel which you may not be able to offer if you are paying school fees etc is a huge loss to your children and to your family as a whole.

Private does not necessarily mean best. Private schools do not miraculously change lazy children into scholars - they just punish them more. I think you need to properly explore the options before you make any drastic changes which may have long term consequences and not give the results you seem to want

Gah. I dislike primary homework quite intensely. Children don't necessarily learn anything from their homework and, conversely, children don't need to be doing homework to learn outside school hours.

I think primary schools should ban homework until year 6, at which point, a bit of carrying things to and fro, to a deadline, might be good preparation for secondary school.

I agree that it is not worth it. Downsizing may lead to not living in as good a neighbourhood. I would hire a tutor instead. She will want to do extra to keep up when the tutor comes round and this will eventually instill pride in doing extra work. It will have a snowball effect and show her the results of independent, hard work.

My son got sat L5 in all subjects now is gifted and talented. He hardly did any homework. It's irrelevant IMO. Nothing stopping you getting the KS workbooks and doing it at home yourself.

You are getting too stressed and hung up on nothing. Sorry.

Not all private schools are good and forking out lots of money to instill 'self discipline' is a waste of money. Much better to engender it voluntarily by achieving demonstrable results with extra tuition after school.

LOL @ "a bit of carrying things to and fro, to a deadline"

The school is not pushing and not strechting her. She is capable of more. But don't despair, hopefully things will change at secondary school.

Hopefully there will be no more 'cut out a hut from a pattern, and stick some foliage on it for a class project' in secondary school.

You need to think hard about it and give some serious consideration as to how the finances will stack up.

I did this, as DS has a host of learning difficulties as well as ASD, but somehow despite all my trying is not severe enough to qualify for any significant help via the state system.

I sold my house in London & moved out, meaning that I was mortgage free & had a bit of cash left over. The fees for DS school are really high & it is crippling. We lead a very frugal lifestyle, week in week out - but as far as I am concerned it is worth every penny. He is happy & thriving. The difference in him is amazing.

If you are really concerned, and there are no other state options near you, how about getting some extra tutoring. Damn site cheaper than a private school.

I agree with the other posters homework is not the issue here. You mention that the school failed to see gaps in your DC and others maths knowledge yet the Head says have faith our SATs results are good. It might be worth seeing how many DCs in years 5 and 6 have tutors and how many do the 11+ (if you have one in your area) or go onto private schools with entrance exams. Obviously not all parents pay for tutors for 11+ or entrance exams but a great number do and this might give you some idea. If this is the case then school are taking the credit for the SATs results and parents are paying for the tutors (as you are doing now)!!!
Are there any other primary schools in the area that you could change to?

The school is categorically not strechting her, and it may also not be stretching her.

Interesting. I have just moved my y4 boy and his younger bro to private.

So I can tell you a bit about the difference.

They were at a "good" school with 95% getting English and Maths L4-5.

However, scratch the surface and you find the majority (I kid you not!) of parents sending their kids to Kumon, Kip or tutor (anxious middle class area ).

I liked the school though, and as DS was seriously behind with English (predicted to not even get L4 in Y6), we did some research and sent him to KipMcGrath for a year. This helped a bit, definitely.

We were undecided but what swung it for us was that DS then got beaten up a few times by 2 children who have SN and are violent, and the school did not deal with that.

Anyway, after a term and a bit at the new, private, school I can see the following differences;

• regular homework (science once a week, maths once or twice an A4 sheet of sums, spellings every week + project (geo or history) once a week). I actually wish they did not have any homework, as they are only little and really 9-4 at school should cover everything IMHO. However, he DOES it as the school expects him to (and it is not just me nagging them).
• They seem to get more work done during school hours (he basically has to work quite a bit harder. He is NOT happy about this. I am.)
• The standard is higher, expectations are higher (DS was top table maths in state school, he is now bottom, as a year behind!)
• the "fun stuff" is really exciting (drama, music and sports)

Downside is the cost and being perceived as some kind of "snob", and also the fact that it is a bit tougher in that if you are not good at sport, you won't get selected to play matches. None of this "it is not about winning, it is about taking part" which I actually liked about state school.

I don't know where he will be in Y6, and we may go back to State (I haven't written it off as such, my DS just has some catching up to do first).

Not sure if this essay is of any use to you, it is just that every individual case varies!

PS, our fees are 2,200 per child per term (so fees vary! just read the fees of the poster above) going up to 2,400 by y6. School trips are low key, 3 days in Dorset I think, and cost 200 pounds or less. No other hidden costs.

Chandon - your fees are enviable! My £12000 is for both children - junior at about £4k but Senior nearer £8k (minor public school in SE). Younger one's senior fees will be about £5k. Public School charges for Stationery !!!!

I guess willali that your school is a bit posher. We chose a school that is academic, but has shabby buildings to be fair, small grounds (half a cricket pitch, so they only play away-matches ), no swimming, no fancy trips. It's like a no-frills prep! teachers are fab, and classes small, results are very good, and that's what matters to me. Still new to this, so hoping for the best (eternal optimist emoticon)

I'd also think about checking out your secondary more thoroughly, and - given that you're considering moving already - exploring the possibility of moving into the catchment area for a school that you think would suit your DCs.

Agree also that plenty of parents pay to get loads of sport! (In fact I'm delighted that one of our local secondaries insists on an hour of exercise for every child every day, though to be fair this isn't all in school time, they are expected strongly encouraged to join lunchtime or after school clubs.) IMO a fit healthy child is much more likely to do well in other areas.

Actually, if they are not getting homework it can mean the work is covered efficiently in school (as in case of DSs super-selective secondary). Just be glad they haven't got loads of tedious stuff to wade through and give them something to get on with yourself.