Downsizing to educate privately - any pearls?

[Tiredbutstanding]

Here's my (sorry, long) dilemma- do I sell up to go private for secondary or not?

We have attended our school for 3 years. Eldest DD is Y4, and there is STILL no weekly or bi-weekly academic homework and definitely NO maths written sheets. We get 30 mins every 2-3 weeks - mostly to look something up on the internet, and write a few paragraphs. Our 'homework' for this TWO WEEK PERIOD is to cut out a hut from a pattern, and stick some foliage on it for a class project. I kid you not.

My DD has needed extra maths this year as she has gaps in yr 2 and 3 maths which were not spotted until year 4 (along with many other children). We now have a tutor to assist.

I have met with/written to, the head, governors etc, to ask for voluntary homework - to no avail. Subsequently ....as the school does not seem to respect homework, neither do my children!! So when it lands, it is a BATTLE to get them to do it. The first attempt is AWFUL and worries me incredibly that this is what they actually produce at school. Yet when 'encouraged' they do a really good job, and the work is of a high standard. (We do now of course do our own homework to make up the shortfall but as it is 'mum' making them do it, and not the school, it is perceived as less valid and even 'unfair/unnecessary').

Why I don't pull them out and go elsewhere?...because we had SUCH a horrendous time when we moved 3 years ago. Also, to be fair to the Head, the year 6 results for the school are good and he says to 'have faith'. It is true that their maths results were 100% Level 4 maths, and about 50% Level 5. So a small miracle may happen - hence we'll stay at this school and do our best for them via home learning.

But for secondary - should we sell the house, and downsize to go private (to a non selective private school). I fear that this LACK of self discipline (that the school is, if not engendering, at least not preventing) is potentially going to fail both DD's at secondary- just when you need to be well motivated to flourish amongst 30 per class, and 8 classes of 30 per year.....

Should say here that if we go private the current lifestyle will have to go too (like many parents). (I went private as my parents knew I was a lazy monkey and I can see the same in my kids!! However it forced me to work hard and later gain a good career......and I've been eternally grateful for this.

Any pearls for me?

Heavens Chandon, I had to pinch myself when I read your first post, we moved ours out of a top performing state in a middle class leafy area for near identical reasons.
The state school our DCs attended looks amazing on paper, but the amout of tutoring those kids do after spending a day at school is a disgrace, the school is nothing more than a creche. As a result of spending so much time outside of school at tutors, or doing tutor homework, there is no time for exercise and many of the kids become very overweight by the time they reach Y6. I was actually shocked when I saw the first sports day as it wasn't something I expected to see in a wealthy suburb.
We moved ours to schools that manage to fit everything into the school day, and are fortunate that that the cost isn't a problem. For anyone not so fortunate I would say that it isn't all about learning maths and English, taking kids to football/rugby/tennis/gym etc is just as important.

I have to disagree with posters saying homework is not important. At my DDs school we get homework to reinforce work that has been done in the classroom that day. The curriculum moves so fast without homework and parental input I know my children would find it hard to keep up, every child is different after all.
Personally I would move to a better/more academic school be it private or state, to have a good education in this day and age is invaluable.

This is perfectly normal homework for a Year 4, which is an age when there's more to life than a mountain of homework when you get in

You'll find you get more 'academic' homework in Year 5 and it ramps up in Year 6 to prepare for SATs and secondary. Not liking homework is perfectly normal but you can't blame the children's lack of respect for it on the school. I't the parent's job to reinforce that it's important and it would get done. If they're complaining about cutting out and making a hut, what do you think they're going to do if faced with a maths sheet???

If you feel your children aren't getting enough 'extra', then encourage museum visits, home activities etc

My personal view is that downsizing for private school is bonkers - particularly so if it isn't even selective! Believe me, dc's who do lots of guing and sticking in years 3 and 4 still go to Oxbridge ....

There are schools that do lots of guing??? I want to go there!!!

Damn sticky keyboard!

Well I'm going to swim against the tide and say that regular, short focussed pieces of HW are helpful.

For example if you want to become proficient at a language, you will need to learn your vacab and grammar regularly. There is no substitution for this.
Ditto times tables.

The key however is finding a school that understands what short, focussed homework means.

Just penned a comprehensive reply, thanking all for your really valid comments, (and just lost it somehow..possibly tiredmumitis or endofalongweekitis)..

As such, and on hearing your thoughts...I think we do need as a family, to visit the local state school, and glean how the DD's feel about the options. Would they prefer to go private and forgoe considerable family outings/lifestyle ...or go state and (jolly well pull their fingers out) ...be fully responsible for their own self motivation, and academic achievement...ie no-one at state is going to hassle you to do your homework, if you don't see the value in handing it in.

It is really hard to rationalise - our parents (DH & I respectively,) struggled to send each privately. Yet for both it worked out immensley, hence to deny the benefits of private education, would be unrealistic. Selling the house would be a small price to pay (to us) to ensure that the DD's had at least an opportunity to reach their own potential- whatever that might be.

There is some solace in thinking you gave them the opportunity to reach their own true ability- whatever this may be (and I'm not under any illusion - they are never going to lead the class - but achieving considerably more than average is definitely within their range). It is worth noting that they would also be pulled out pretty pronto from private education if there was any suggestion of them not pulling their weight..

So I enter the research/review with more rational eyes and further questions to consider (not least, what is important to the family - education or perhaps a more enjoyable family life- seems easy on the surface but not when considering potential repercussions) hence...a rather large glass of wine and copious chocolate is needed at this point......

Many thanks for all your constructive comments- very much appreciated.
x

I didn't ever have homework at primary school - and went to 3 different schools because we moved. Most of my friends say the same. So primary homework is quite a new thing and frankly not particularly necessary in my view/experience.

" ...or go state and (jolly well pull their fingers out) ...be fully responsible for their own self motivation, and academic achievement...ie no-one at state is going to hassle you to do your homework, if you don't see the value in handing it in."

Not sure why you think state schools are like this- certainly the ones I know about aren't!

I don't know if I've missed it, but I don't understand why you are so very concerned about homework. My dd goes to a very high performing state school and does not have a lot of homework- the school's philosophy is thwt they work very hard indeed during the school day, so apart from sometimes practicing new things in Maths and learning vocabulary and so on, homework is mostly just finishing things off and doing a bit of preparatory reading. Or revising for exams, obviously. Or in non academic subjects, actually- I think she's probably done more art homework this year than any other subject!

Visit the state secondary school - they are much MUCH stricter than when I was there. Look at their discipline policy. My DS gets detention for even his shirt being untucked!!

OP, please do not ask tour children to choose between private or state, and therefore making THEM responsible for selling the house or not

I think it is unfair to make them responsible. It is way too much pressure...

I have not told my children that we now pay for their school. they will of course find out, but I will never ever tell them that they need to apreciate how much I am paying for their education, or that we cannot go on holiday as their school is so expensive ( parents do talk to their children like that, and I think it is unfair to heap so much pressure and responsibility on them)

Please let me know what you think? It always makes me so sad.

I agree with Chandon.

OP I don't think you can tell how your children will work once they get to secondary. Our DS was very keen on work at primary (Y3). After year 3 he was moved to a very selective London Independent and it became apparent that he was not particularly motivated to do much work. He is naturally economical in relation to effort. He has however been exceptionally well educated there and very happy. He pulled his finger our in Y11 surprising everyone and pulled down 11 A*s and 1 A.

DD who is top average did not pass the entrance exams for the local high schools and we compromised and sent her to a local state school with an excellent reputation. She astounded us by working hard and rising quickly to the top. Unfortunately there was some very poor behaviour and I did not like the head's ethos and at the end of Y8 we transferred her to the independent sector - gentle, small school, but she is working hard, so much happier and now flying socially and academically.

So, DS hard worker at primary turned out to a be lazy sod. DD who coudl not be persuaded to work at primary had her lights switched on at secondary and is grafting and may catch up with lazy brother.

I'm not sure you can tell at primary. In your shoes I think I would try out the state sector and add in the extras from the savings on school fees. I think you need to be aware of expectations and career options later on. I went to a very selective grammar school until 16 and then the local public school for 6th form. It was a very long time ago (51 now) but it was notable that boys from the grammar with two to three middle of the road A'Levels were pushed to work in banks or the lower levels of the civil service. Boys with the same achievements in the public school were pushed into things like chartered surveying - and some of them I still know and are very successful.

As far as downsizing goes - if you end up having to do it I think you should - but only if you have to and if you are outside London it is likely to be avoidable. If you will struggle to do it I would plug the gaps, and save the money for the university years and give your girls a flying start and pay their uni fees for them so they start work with no debt.

Sorry, that was long.

"I think we do need as a family, to visit the local state school, and glean how the DD's feel about the options. Would they prefer to go private and forgoe considerable family outings/lifestyle ...or go state and (jolly well pull their fingers out) ...be fully responsible for their own self motivation, and academic achievement...ie no-one at state is going to hassle you to do your homework, if you don't see the value in handing it in."

Do you know for a fact that the local secondary is like this? You can jump to conclusions from what the local primaries are like.

Ds' primary was very lax about homework and ds is as lazy as they come. In secondary non-completion of homework spells automatic detention. I find it focuses his mind wonderfully

I imagine what worries you is the idea that unless your dcs are set on a certain track from the start they will always be the same. But human beings are very flexible, and growing up means you will constantly have to adjust your ideas of what is acceptable to the people around you.

So I would check out those state secondaries before I make a decision. And unless your dcs are on board, there is a real risk they will resent the family down-sizing and stop making an effort. You can take a horse to water and all that....

I'm a teacher and have taught in an 'outstanding' rural secondary and a 'good' inner city one. If I could have a pound for the number of 'clever but lazy' kids who suddenly start to work in Year 11 and get a string of A*s then I would be a rich woman.

It's about maturity and growing up and I often despair of kids in Y9 and Y10 and they usually deliver the goods in the end. If you have extensive savings then go ahead and waste them but please don't sacrifice the nice and fun things in life to send your kids private in the mistaken belief that it will better serve lazy kids. Lazy kids from nice families, who are supportive and encourage them, do 'get it' by the time it comes to GCSEs.

Have a bit of faith in your children and your parenting - it's probably a lot more significant than £50kplus

OP what you describe sounds very familiar. Don't leave it to the school, get stuck in there and start teaching them some self-discipline and enjoyment of academic work, otherwise even if they move they'll sink against children who have been doing it for years.

I'd downsize for the right school, but definitely not just because it's private. If it's non selective - what is it offering, except segregation of rich and poor? (Not saying it isn't offering other benefits but I'd never assume a school is better because it's private.) Are there no selective schools in your area? having something to work towards might be an incentive.

sunshine I don't dispute at all what you say, but I do question whether that is a good thing.

An excellent education cannot consist of bumbling along, disengaged and unstimulated, then at the last minute hard graft and A*s. Surely that's exactly what we don't want for an education for our DC?

A better, more rounded, education, would surely involve an engaged and stimulated child throughout, whatever the results at the end? It will serve them much better on the long run no?

wordfactory I think the bit that sunshine has glossed over is the fact that in the background the children who pull their fingers out in the GCSE year are being well educated all along. In a good environment, whether the young people are working or not, they will still be absorbing a lot of the teaching.

A case in point was our own ds - horizontal for most exams until y11 but incredibly well taught at an incredibly good school and when the time came he had the intelligence and the foundations in place to sprint more than ably across the line.

It's also important to remember that creating an impression of" bumbling along, disengaged and unstimulated" is the main ambition of many teenagers! To listen to many of my dd's friends you would think they are constantly bored, being taught nothing by crap teachers. But I know that they are actually hard working, engaged, switched on to learning, and on course for As and A*s.

You sound as if you are panicking to me. Personally I would be thrilled if mine were at a primary school without homework. Why are you setting so much store by homework? If they work hard all day why do the need more of the same? What do you do in the time instead? Do you play chess and card games/board games with them, let them cook meals, read with them, have discussions, play word games, let them write stories etc etc etc. Or do you do none of the above and just feel happy if they have a string of worksheets?
I would be very clear about what you want from education before you start downsizing. Do the DCs want this-I would hate my parents to make 'sacrifices' for me-it is way too much pressure. (if you do go ahead, never mention that you have made sacrifices and expect them to deliver).
I would go for self motivation and keep my lifestyle and house.

I would at least look at schools first. There are good and bad private schools-just as there are good and bad state schools.

Gosh I really baulk at the words 'selling our house would be a small price to pay'.
Er, no, it wouldn't, it would be a massive deal, and one that I'm not sure your children would thank you for when you can't get back onto the housing ladder and so are living in insecure rented accommodation into your dotage and reliant on them to save you from homelessness when your landlord decides to throw you out. Especially since with their university debts, they'll be unlikely to buy their own place either.
I'm not saying it's not the right thing to do - I've no idea of the relative merits of your private and state secondaries, but it's really not a 'small price'.

"All I've heard as a primary mum, is that once they are in secondary they are on their own "

No! Most definitely not IME. Because schools are terrified that their pupils will fail to get the 5 A* to C grades at GCSE. I haven't found that DS1 is 'on his own' in the slightest. He's set to get reasonable (not brilliant) grades so they are determined he won't let them down. I've had letters, emails, voice mails from various teachers over the last 12m.

BTW homework is not worth getting so stressed about in primary.

I think that you should stop listening to rumours and actually visit the schools. DC's comprehensive mentored pupils who were falling behind, or not working to expected levels. They were not on their own.

I didn't find there was much connection between homework at primary and homework at secondary. That phrase "they are on their own" sounds very scary, but all it means is they are growing up, they can be expected to take a bit more responsibility and will be encouraged to do so- just as they can be expected to take a bit more responsibility for transport arrangements and lunch money.

There is a big big difference between your Yr 4 dd and the Yr 7 dd you will have in 3 years time: chances are they almost totally different people. What your dd can or cannot do now says nothing about what she will be able or not able to do when she is almost a teenager. And what a certain school expects of you now says very little of what they will expect of her in 3 years time.