Is this normal in Scottish primary schools?

[thewriteradmitsthat]

Have nc for this. I caught up this weekend with a friend who is a primary teacher in Scotland. I was struck by her description of schooling seemed so different from my experience in primary education in England especially in terms of safeguarding procedures and some aspects of the curriculum.

I have always admired the Scottish education system- I thought Highers, for example, were better than A levels, when I was doing a levels myself, as they seemed to offer a bit of a broader education with still Studying 5 subjects before university. But what she described shocked me and I'm not sure if standards have slipped in Scotland or if they have got left behind or if my experience in England is unusual.

This is the kind of thing she was describing:

Lax rules re uniform due to “poverty proofing”
Safeguarding laxness eg schools not having secure perimeter fence
Not the norm to have electronic sign in systems with photo ID and visitor lanyards- the norm in England
Emphasis on free play and discovery learning, carousels of activities where teacher facilitates, rather than directly and explicitly instructing them- normal in younger primary years in England but this was in older primary year’s eg p6 and p7
Lack of challenge in the curriculum eg maths- content not as challenging as what is required in ks2 sats and linked to the fact obviously no formal testing like in sats
iPads/chrome books for all students resulting in student doing very little handwritten work
Funding cuts so that schools have no janitors, and Principal Teacher roles being cut.

My daughter goes to an Edinburgh Primary school and none of what you have mentioned is true of her school!

There are no high perimeter fences in my child's Primary or Secondary, but exterior doors are locked so you might get into the playground, but you're not getting into the building. No lanyards either.

Some councils have provided iPads, Glasgow has I think, not in my area and kids don't use them routinely.

Primary and Secondary still has a Jannie - secondary has several.

Uniform - they got a wee bit more lax during Covid as the kids were being asked to wear a whole new clean set of clothes every day and you can't wash a blazer every night. Some schools are finding it hard to pull this back. Also in Scotland there are very few state schools who have the "you must wear this skirt from this retailer and this logo jumper only available from the school at £40". It's much more normal to have a colour scheme like black and white or navy and pale blue shirts, and some kids/parents will push the boundaries. I would argue that the ridiculous threads I have read on here about English schools demanding expensive branded skirts, sweaters, blazers, winter gym kit, summer gym kit, book bags etc etc is far more concerning when you're wating the money.

Attainment - again, don't recognise the free for all in P6/7 which you describe. Perhaps in Golden Time on a Friday afternoon. Also in P7 my child's teacher would set 4 tasks which had to be completed that morning, it was up to the child to decide in which order to do them, but they still all had to be done. No there are no SATS and that's a good thing. Attainment has been going down in recent years and the scottish government don't seem to want to face up to the fact that their CfE is a bit of a shit show. Also we were out of school a LOT longer than schools in England/Wales which will have had an effect too.

I have a ds at a small rural primary in NE Scotland. They have repeatedly stated during covid not to worry about uniform but everyone seems to be in school colours if not official stuff.
There isn't a secure perimeter.
No electronic sign in system.
Ds is very good at maths, he is working above his age level with support from his teacher. Based on things he's been encouraged to do, Id definitely say they are pushing him.
They have access to ipads but the vast majority of work which comes home is hand written.
Definitely a janitor and a head teacher.

I imagine there is a lot of variation. My Goddaughter teaches in Yorkshire and has a lot of negative things to say.

So @thewriteradmitsthat you have experience of all English schools and your friend has experience of all Scottish schools?
wow! How did you manage that?

True for uniform in some schools - our school has uniform rules around colours (e.g. jumper colour, polo shirt colour, trouser colour, black shoes) and you can buy logoed stuff, but there's no insistence that you do so - a supermarket uniform in the colours is fine. I can't see what your problem would be with this?

Only one entry point in and out the school other than at start/finish time - no we don't get a lanyard, but you're never not accompanied by a member of staff if you're visiting. Gates/fencing is secure - no pupil can leave without a member of staff knowing about it.

Not sure what you're on about re: free play tbh. Some of the English curriculum sounds absolutely barking to me but I'm not a teacher or a parent with a child at an English school so it's none of my business.

The children do have ipads for using in class for some tasks but their work is mostly handwritten.

Yes, funding isn't fantastic, but again, some of the things I see written on social media about funding issues in English primaries makes me very glad my child is in Scotland - no-one's talking about cutting the hours that the school is open because they can't afford to staff/heat their school.

We have a Janny and I don't know of any primaries that don't - they're an integral part of the school.

There are definitely improvements to be made - loads. I'd love to see more classroom assistants which is something that I think England resources better (although not as a substitute for smaller class sizes and decent qualified teacher staffing). I don't really have an opinion on CfE but I know it's not popular with teachers and I trust their professional opinion - I don't think the English curriculum necessarily should be their new model though.

Your friend's school sounds like it's having a tough time, but honestly the uniform thing is silly so it makes me wonder about some of the other stuff they're saying.

I think some of this is about perspective. My kids' school has basic uniform rules: black shoes (preferably not trainers), white shirt and tie or one colour of polo shirt, grey trousers or skirt, one colour of knitwear. Is this lax? The kids look smart, but we don't have this ridiculous performative carry on of kids missing education because their jumper is from the wrong shop or their shoes arent quite right. I fund the Englush system's apparent over reach on what kids wear bizarre.

I've never had to do an electronic sign in but you have to present at reception and there's a normal fence around the grounds. Feels adequate.

There is testing and monitoring but kids don't get told "this is a test". You don't have 10 year olds cramming for exams. You don't have 6 year olds worrying about their "performance".

I do think some aspects of the curriculum are insufficiently challenging for more able kids, I don't know if England is different.

Self directed learning is big across the age groups but it appears blended with conventional teaching approaches. It feels positive.

My 6yo occasionally uses tech but mostly writes in jotters. 11yos have all been given an ipad but they write too.

They have a janitor and principal teachers.

Uniform for ds's school was essentially generic white or red polo and red sweatshirt and black or grey trousers/skirt. Nothing needed to be ridiculously expensive logo'd, although there were available if wanted. That isnt lax uniform rules, that is just common sense.

The security at the school was appropriate and ipads were used occasionally.

I would take anyone with such a negative view of everything about anything with a pinch of salt. I could easily rhyme off 10 things I think are terrible about the English system, but it does have parts I think are better too.

Highers and A Levels are not directly comparable, they are completely different education systems and any comparison would need to be done as a whole.

Our school has uniform policy designed to minimise stress on less well off families but also to facilitate seamless transitions to and from outdoor and physical learning. Kids are asked to wear practical shoes and trousers with the school sweatshirt / T-shirt. It looks quite casual/informal compared to what I believe is the norm in England but it is infinitely more practical. They don’t change for every bit of “pe” and physical/outdoor lessons happen all week and often multiple times a day.

see above also re “discovery based learning” the curriculum allows loads more variety in ways of teaching and learning but it’s still learning.

Our perimeter fence/gates are not locked and many rural schools have no high fence - but I’ve yet to hear of any adverse consequences to this.
visitors don’t have lanyards or sign in electronically but they’re never unaccompanied and the school is small enough people would approach any unaccompanied stranger.

I’ve no doubt there are serious funding issues. But thankfully we’ve not lost any staff.

Our perimeter fence/gates are not locked and many rural schools have no high fence - but I’ve yet to hear of any adverse consequences to this.
visitors don’t have lanyards or sign in electronically but they’re never unaccompanied and the school is small enough people would approach any unaccompanied stranger.

See I find this pretty astonishing and think an English school would fail an ofsted for this. And also ironic as the reason these measures were introduced in England was because of a tragedy in Scotland.

The uniform does sound sensible but my friend was saying things like since covid students come in PE kit on PE days but often the items aren't kit, just any clothes, and the head says that they might be the only clothes the student has so lets it slide.

In my experience schools here would in some cases provide some PE kit if parents genuinely couldn't afford it.

A tragedy which has never been repeated, or even close, in over 20 years since.

Many of the little rural schools where I teach in the in the SW don't have secure perimeter fences, just a stone wall or a 3 bar with an open gate. Electronic sign-in is a total novelty- we've only just got it and I teach in a big, relatively well-resourced town school. It's complete nonsense that schools without these things would fail ofsted.

Kids can learn and achieve just as well regardless of what they are wearing.

You are doing a lot of pearl clutching. Why are you so bothered?

I'm not Pearl clutching, just interested.

A tragedy which has never been repeated, or even close, in over 20 years since.

Yes, thank god. I naively thought this may have been down to increased security, not chance.

This.

🙄

My question was "is this normal....?" So I wasn't asserting her experience was true of all schools in Scotland at all. I was asking the question.

I do visit lots of other schools as part of my work, in my local area, not nationally, which is what I am basing my experience on.

I have read ofsted reports where the security of the site has been cited as a reason for a RI or below judgement.

It's odd that you say you're interested but ignored all the positive points to focus on what you consider negative.
There can be differences between schools in affluent areas and those in areas of deprivation.
All of our schools have had secure fencing and gates; electronic doors and lanyards for visitors. Curriculum is adapted for able DCs. My DD (age 13) is completing work at a higher level than her friend (age 15) who is a year above in an English grammar school. Oddly enough that didn't cause me to jump to the conclusion that all English grammar schools have a curriculum two years behind Scotland. Perhaps reasoning and research skills are taught to a higher standard in Scotland.

The uniform rules around us are immensely practical. Some of the posts on here about bonkers requirements for uniforms and expensive clothes baffle me. Our primary is dark colours and you can buy school polo shirts that are cheap. Leggings, joggers, etc. welcome.

I went to a school with no uniform at all and it was one of the highest attaining state secondaries in the country.

It wasnt chance that almost totally banned the private ownership of handguns after dunblane. If you are so interested in this topic there is plenty of easily accessible sources to get the basics.

My husband works in schools around n-east Scotland. He says that primaries generally operate a logbook and admin staff need to physically admit you. Doors inside the school are locked until admittance and if there is no one on duty admin wise then you can't get past reception. His badge is checked every time. Some of the secondaries have video buzzer entry.

Yes. Security was beefed up following the Dunblane massacre in all schools in the UK which is why no-one can wander into a school anymore.

In small rural schools they may find it easier to get into a playground but these are no longer unsupervised at breaks, and in class time you can't get into the school from the playground.

We don't have Ofsted in Scotland, and our school 's last HMIE report was excellent despite the lack of lanyards and electronic sign in. If they were propping open fire doors or the main entrance I would expect they'd have had something to say about it.

I've always found the obsession in England about school uniform to be a little odd. It seems ridiculous that kids can be sent home for not having the correct, possibly branded, uniform. I think the approach in Scotland is more sensible.

Oddly, back in the 70s/80s none of my English cousins had to wear school uniform at primary and thought it was strange that we did in Scotland.

Bizarre post. Fake?

KS2 fairly similar to second level curriculum in maths.

It's extremely rare for schools not to have controlled entry.

Exactly this. Adults in the playground at breaks, school doors locked while the children are in class. Only way in is through the front door by the office. This is standard practice.

What would be the point in putting a 10 foot fence around a school in a small rural area where there has never been a problem with intruders?