Is this normal in Scottish primary schools?

[thewriteradmitsthat]

Have nc for this. I caught up this weekend with a friend who is a primary teacher in Scotland. I was struck by her description of schooling seemed so different from my experience in primary education in England especially in terms of safeguarding procedures and some aspects of the curriculum.

I have always admired the Scottish education system- I thought Highers, for example, were better than A levels, when I was doing a levels myself, as they seemed to offer a bit of a broader education with still Studying 5 subjects before university. But what she described shocked me and I'm not sure if standards have slipped in Scotland or if they have got left behind or if my experience in England is unusual.

This is the kind of thing she was describing:

Lax rules re uniform due to “poverty proofing”
Safeguarding laxness eg schools not having secure perimeter fence
Not the norm to have electronic sign in systems with photo ID and visitor lanyards- the norm in England
Emphasis on free play and discovery learning, carousels of activities where teacher facilitates, rather than directly and explicitly instructing them- normal in younger primary years in England but this was in older primary year’s eg p6 and p7
Lack of challenge in the curriculum eg maths- content not as challenging as what is required in ks2 sats and linked to the fact obviously no formal testing like in sats
iPads/chrome books for all students resulting in student doing very little handwritten work
Funding cuts so that schools have no janitors, and Principal Teacher roles being cut.

Well funny you should say that but I do know of a school where this was a factor in a poor ofsted judgement. Not that they let them out exactly but that they had no way of accounting for who was on site at lunchtime and when they checked registers after lunch a small number of students hadn't returned so were not accounted for and this hadn't been flagged soon enough.

I remember in P6 we were allowed out for lunch if your parents wrote a permission letter. My best pal and I used to go out for lunch on Wednesdays and go to Woolworths to buy laces!

They may finish earlier on a Friday but they'll do longer days Mon-Thu so it evens itself out.

Small rural school in sw Scotland.

Our uniform is definitely quite relaxed. Coloured sweatshirt, white polo and black or grey bottoms. They don’t seem bothered if it’s logo or not as long as the colour is right, but most kids seem to have the logo tops. They don’t wear “school shoes”. They wear whatever outdoor shoes you want and then they change into plimsoles or trainers inside the school and only wear those indoors.

We do actually have a really high fence on one side, but that’s because the school is next to the main road. The fence and gate from the car park though is normal height and I’m sure even I could climb it if I wanted to. You have to be buzzed in to the building and they do have cameras and playground supervisors.

My kids are only p1 and p3 so still some play based even in p3 I believe, although definitely less than p1 and p2. My kids both seem to be achieving well and love school so clearly they are doing ok in terms of attainment.

The overall impression was negative so you thought you’d come onto Scotsnet and tell us all that these would never happen in English schools? I mean, for someone who works in schools I would have thought you would have realised how ridiculous that sounds.

Uniform is definitely a lot less strict in Scotland! I could go to any supermarket and pick up the correct colour jumper and polo shirts and that would be fine. I don’t, but lots do! A lot more laid back about earrings etc too.

The children can wear anything really for PE - there’s absolutely no specification. There’s no ‘kit’.

I think the above makes it hard to relate to the posts you see about cost of uniform because you can really make it as inexpensive as you need to here.

The fence thing isn’t really relevant because id someone wanted to harm the children they could just wait until the children all exit the playground at the same time altogether every day! So not really necessary. You absolutely do need to be buzzed into the building though.

I wasn't telling, I was asking. But obviously my question has touched a nerve.

That was aimed at @SirChenjins btw.

I'm grateful to the posters who have answered my questions, rather than those who have interrogated me about my motivations in asking them!

Not particularly - I’m English, and I can see that what you asked and they way you asked it was goady.

I hope the answers you’ve received have reassured you that the schools here have their strengths and weaknesses just as English ones do - although you knew that really.

I don't think you have touched a nerve op, I think you are intentionally trying to stir things up. The only thing I can't work out is why, are you bored, is it just for entertainment?

Lax by whose standards?

Having experienced both English and Scottish primary schools, the differences we noticed were:

the English curriculum was far far more concentrated on the measurable maths and English, very little art, outdoor learning, music, PE or free play. This was not a good thing as far as I was concerned.

not much security in either school really.

English school - wouldn’t send an ill child home and would disapprove of time off unless vomiting
Scottish school trusted you to judge for yourself

obv no SATS in Scotland, just annual casual testing

@Happylittlethoughts I tried to explain later on in the thread that I hadn't put that very well. What i mean is, lax by the school's own standards.

So school A- does not believe in uniform, thinks it is immaterial in relation to educational standards, therefore has no uniform - fine.

School B- has a uniform, either formal with blazer and the works or the simple unbranded uniform described by many on here. School enforces rules re uniform and supports disadvantaged families with second hand uniform etc where needed. Fine.

School C- says it has uniform rule, but rarely enforces the rule, as the clothes a child wears may be the only clothes they have. This imo is lax as it implies rules are not important and leads to falling standards elsewhere.

It is this scenario my friend was describing and she was feeling frustrated/undermined trying to enforce a rule which was not being enforced by her HT and DHT.

Only the last thing on the OP's list would bother me at all.

That's how it is in our primary school. Doors are locked and you need buzzed in.

No locked gates on the playground.

Uniform is just a colour - no logo stuff required and blazers are an option but not compulsory at secondary school locally.

Of your friend teaches in a primary school then she will be well aware of the Scottish Govt’s policy on uniform and will know this has nothing to do with the HT and DHT.

I teach in a large city school.

We do not have a tall perimeter fence.

We do have electronic locks on all doors.

School uniform was relaxed during COVID. Following that, children now wear PE clothes on gym days rather than get changed. School uniform was always generic supermarket plus a school tie.

Attainment in P6 and P7 rose in my school the first year back from COVID due to the narrowed curriculum. Active learning is encouraged throughout our school.

Why nc for the thread if you feel what you're asking is reasonable?

DfE and OFSTED do not operate in Scotland, OP.

Just didn't want to be identifiable - both me and my friend

Yes I know that. I am referring to them to make a comparison with what is (rightly or wrongly) commonplace or expected in England.

Because the legislation on uniform is different in England. Why is your friend complaining that her HT is upholding govt legislation?

Oh, and my current have 2 iPads for 22 children.

Janitor is full time. HT and two DHTs all full time. Music specialist teaches 3 days per week. Free music tuition in piano, all strings, all brass and percussion.

RCCT - 30 mins per 5 hrs contact. Since COVID our school ensures all RCCT in one block and encouraged to work from home.

Funding for PSAs is like gold dust. No petty cash anymore due to PECOS which is PITA.

We have restrictions on photocopying for the first time this academic year. 750 B&W and 10 colour.

Our school is option C for uniform and it's a non issue. During Covid, with windows open everywhere, kids could wear any warm jumpers they had and all PE was outside so sports type clothes on these days.

Now we are being encouraged to get school (as in the colour, supermarket jumpers are fine) hoodies or jumpers when our child goes up a size, but they don't want us to have normal jumpers and excess school ones too. It's a sensible phasing back in of uniform.

The system is more cohesive because every state school (except Jordanhill) is under LA control. They control most school policies. It would be the LA that would fence a school therefore not relevant to inspection.

HMIe changed radically after Mrs Hogg died by divide following an inspection.

Education Scotland, HMIe and the SQA are too enmeshed though. There is a shake-up coming, as I understand things.