Is this normal in Scottish primary schools?

[thewriteradmitsthat]

Have nc for this. I caught up this weekend with a friend who is a primary teacher in Scotland. I was struck by her description of schooling seemed so different from my experience in primary education in England especially in terms of safeguarding procedures and some aspects of the curriculum.

I have always admired the Scottish education system- I thought Highers, for example, were better than A levels, when I was doing a levels myself, as they seemed to offer a bit of a broader education with still Studying 5 subjects before university. But what she described shocked me and I'm not sure if standards have slipped in Scotland or if they have got left behind or if my experience in England is unusual.

This is the kind of thing she was describing:

Lax rules re uniform due to “poverty proofing”
Safeguarding laxness eg schools not having secure perimeter fence
Not the norm to have electronic sign in systems with photo ID and visitor lanyards- the norm in England
Emphasis on free play and discovery learning, carousels of activities where teacher facilitates, rather than directly and explicitly instructing them- normal in younger primary years in England but this was in older primary year’s eg p6 and p7
Lack of challenge in the curriculum eg maths- content not as challenging as what is required in ks2 sats and linked to the fact obviously no formal testing like in sats
iPads/chrome books for all students resulting in student doing very little handwritten work
Funding cuts so that schools have no janitors, and Principal Teacher roles being cut.

Interesting @stargirl1701! Thanks for the link, I’ll take a look.

Notionally, yes. The LA and HMIe are different bodies. But, staff migration between the 2 is high. My current HT has been a QIO with the LA, seconded to Ed Scot as well as serving in HMIe. It's a small country.

The LA sends teams of QIOs on Learning and Achievement visits (inspections) more regularly than we see HMIe. The HT's line manager is a LA QIO.

HMIe will send a draft inspection report to the LA before it is published. This gives the LA time to produce evidence that may refute points the inspectors make about a specific school.

There are no teachers or SLT employed by the individual school. Every contract is with the LA. Schools as individual corporate entities do not exist here as they do in England.

My children's school has a high standard of uniform with shirts and ties from P1 but this is only possible because the parents choose to comply. Despite good compliance the head makes a point of letting parents know that pupils being in school is more important than uniform.

Realistically even if a school wanted to be stricter they have their hands tied if uniform is not worn as the LA would never support any discipline or exclusion because a child wore joggers and a polo shirt instead.

Well funny you should say that but I do know of a school where this was a factor in a poor ofsted judgement. Not that they let them out exactly but that they had no way of accounting for who was on site at lunchtime and when they checked registers after lunch a small number of students hadn't returned so were not accounted for and this hadn't been flagged soon enough.

The bold part is key, stop twisting things to meet your narrative.

DS secondary has no perimeter fence to speak of and pupils in y11 upwards are allowed off site at lunchtime.

It's an outstanding school and has been since I attended in the 90s (at which time there was no electronic sign in or biometric entry to the various buildings like they have now).

No, they aren't "mostly".

Maybe the ones you've seen are but I'd be interested to hear what your assertion of "mostly" is based on.

None of the English rural primary schools we've attended have high fences and all have had relaxed or no uniform. Sign in was via a receptionist.
Not sure why a relaxed uniform or no uniform is a problem, especially if it's done for poverty proofing.
We're no longer in England and primaries are similar here, no high fences, never seen an electronic sign in. Lots of emphasis on free play (thats a good thing!), although more uniform, but trainers can be worn.

@FrangipaniBlue it was a caveat, not "twisting the narrative". If I wanted to twist the narrative I'd not have mentioned that part at all would I?

And If it's been Outstanding "since the 90s" don't be surprised if it gets downgraded at the next inspection btw. Happening to most long-standing outstanding schools.

Maybe the ones you've seen are but I'd be interested to hear what your assertion of "mostly" is based on.

In the large conurbation in which I live in the north of England, the vast vast majority of secondary schools have a high perimeter fence.

Allowing students out at lunch is fine, as long as there is a system which allows to the school to account for who is on site/off site in this period, like biometric sign in/out or some other fool proof method, in case of fire. There wasn't one in the case I referred to.

Small (60 kids) NE Scotland rural school

Access to playground yes, access to school No. Doors are locked and you have to buzz to get in.

All kids wear uniforms and take PR kits in and change into them then back into uniforms

Yes we have a Janitor.

What else are you still concerned about OP that your friend wasn’t able to shed light on? You seem very invested in the Scottish school system for someone who doesn’t live here.

@SirChenjins

Why is being interested such a bad thing?

I'm actually also interested in the idea of the school not existing as a corporate entity as described helpfully by a PP.

Does this mean staff can be re-deployed anywhere in an LA?

FFS of course there’s no uniform policy. 🤦‍♀️ How are the kids gonna buy Buckie at lunchtime if they’re wearing a school tie? Christ onna bike.

No, I said concerned and very invested. Why, when it’s of absolutely no consequence to you?

Re redeployment - did your friend not explain all this to you?

That's just depressing. I am so glad my children's secondary school isn't like that.

Lax rules re uniform due to “poverty proofing”

• not all English schools have a uniform at all, several locally don’t . A lot of state primaries with uniforms have very lax rules, mine does,

Safeguarding laxness eg schools not having secure perimeter fence

_ normal for primaries in England ime. However, lots of secdnaries are open gates, etc even if they do have a perimeter fence

Not the norm to have electronic sign in systems with photo ID and visitor lanyards- the norm in England

• whilst we have photo is cards and lanyards for staff we don't have an electronic sign in system, all done in paper here. Visitors sign in and out and have a paper ID to carry

Emphasis on free play and discovery learning, carousels of activities where teacher facilitates, rather than directly and explicitly instructing them- normal in younger primary years in England but this was in older primary year’s eg p6 and p7

• used to be able to do this - carousels - in English primaries/lower ks3 much more prior to the renewed NC. Time is so tight now there is little room for play, which is a shame as children learn so well through it when it is well prepared. Some schools do have ongoing carousels for art, dt, etc which children move between each term etc.

Lack of challenge in the curriculum eg maths- content not as challenging as what is required in ks2 sats and linked to the fact obviously no formal testing like in sats

• SATs don't really do anything to assess individual children well, most teachers could predict what standard their pupils are at better than a test paper at the end of KS2. The current NC has gone to farm is too prescriptive and fails a lot of children in it's current state. There is no room for flexibility and following children’s interests and a lot of children struggle.

iPads/chrome books for all students resulting in student doing very little handwritten work

• Some schools in England have this, a lot don't.

Funding cuts so that schools have no janitors, and Principal Teacher roles being cut.

• funding in English schools is shocking and there is a starting crisis in all job areas

Chromebooks from p4 in our school and very little homework. I'm not a fan of C for E and your comment re play and math reflects my concerns on how disjointed the learning seems to be.

All the Primaries and Secondaries in my area in England have secure perimeter fencing (with the exception of a private school). Any breaches in the fencing have been picked up by safeguarding visits

Lanyards are compulsory, different colour lanyards notify different types of visitors eg whether have DBS or not, and pupils know what they mean and to go to a trusted adult if they see someone without a lanyard

I do genuinely find the uniform question fascinating.

My DS attended two primary schools where uniform was very casual - you were encouraged to wear school colours but that wasn't enforced and nor should it have been. To answer one of OP's points though, in one school we had a discussion at PTA and reframed the 'rules' to reflect the approach, so no pupil was 'breaking the rules' - which just isn't fair, there are lots of literate and anxious wee ones who can read the rules and don't want to do anything 'wrong' but aren't in control of what they wear. It also meant there wasn't ambiguity about which rule you could break and which you had to keep.

He got a new ht in high school though who was obsessed by uniform standards but apparently this is quite common when someone gets their first headship?

Security - you have to remember that a lot of playgrounds here are 'open' which means that they are open to the public outwith school times. That means they have to look open. What Scotland did after Dunblane was reframe the rules around the school rather than making the schools fortresses. Again, quite right too. If you look at America you can see that no school security can deter a determined gunman. Far better to control the guns than raise the fences.

PT posts are being cut and one of the reasons for this is to fund iPads for every child. I'd rather the money went into teachers myself.

Our children come in pe kits on pe day. We have a very basic ‘uniform’ of none branded t shirt and shorts -thats to avoid football shirts, etc

Thank you to those answering my questions in good faith. I find it all really interesting.

Yes the whole "PE uniform" is not something I have ever come across in any Scottish state schools. At my kids' primary school the rules were black shorts, white t-shirt. Any shorts or t-shirt would do. Most people bought the basic supermarket ones. School did sell white t-shirts with the badge embroidered, maybe 50% wore them.

At senior school the rules are similar but without the colour requirement. Shorts and t-shirt, if it's winter and they are outside, joggers and hoodie. No alcohol/gambling branding. No offensive slogans. Non-marking trainers.

In contrast, the secondary school my nephews attend in England (also state) demand three different types of branded PE top.

Yes, my contract is with my LA. Technically, I could redeployed anywhere but in practice it doesn't happen without consultation.