Is this normal in Scottish primary schools?

[thewriteradmitsthat]

Have nc for this. I caught up this weekend with a friend who is a primary teacher in Scotland. I was struck by her description of schooling seemed so different from my experience in primary education in England especially in terms of safeguarding procedures and some aspects of the curriculum.

I have always admired the Scottish education system- I thought Highers, for example, were better than A levels, when I was doing a levels myself, as they seemed to offer a bit of a broader education with still Studying 5 subjects before university. But what she described shocked me and I'm not sure if standards have slipped in Scotland or if they have got left behind or if my experience in England is unusual.

This is the kind of thing she was describing:

Lax rules re uniform due to “poverty proofing”
Safeguarding laxness eg schools not having secure perimeter fence
Not the norm to have electronic sign in systems with photo ID and visitor lanyards- the norm in England
Emphasis on free play and discovery learning, carousels of activities where teacher facilitates, rather than directly and explicitly instructing them- normal in younger primary years in England but this was in older primary year’s eg p6 and p7
Lack of challenge in the curriculum eg maths- content not as challenging as what is required in ks2 sats and linked to the fact obviously no formal testing like in sats
iPads/chrome books for all students resulting in student doing very little handwritten work
Funding cuts so that schools have no janitors, and Principal Teacher roles being cut.

*died by suicide

The systems are different like any two comparator countries. They were never the same from inception. Both systems reflect the society they serve which again, like any two other countries, are different.

The secondary school my two go to has strict policies about school uniform, use of mobile phones and attendance:lateness.

All policies are designed to have an educational purpose yet take into account the cost of the school day, equity and inclusion.

Our school uniform is black clothes with white shirt. Tie. Blazers for S5 and S6. There are rules about what counts as "black uniform" leggings and joggers do not.

This is for safety and to create a business environment that creates a ready to learn attitude.

No constant use of tech.

Doors and grounds supervised.

Absolutely have sign in systems and need to wear a sticker indicating you are a visitor.

Your friend knows about one or two schools, certainly not a big enough sampling to determine the value (or otherwise) of Scottish education!

Why is your friend complaining that her HT is upholding govt legislation?

Well I think, she didn't say this explicitly, but what I inferred was, that she doesn't agree with it. She thinks it is leading to a drop in standards, as if rules/expectations are not enforced, then it makes it harder to challenge other behaviour which breaks rules (not those just relayed to uniform).

Our primary school encourages uniform sweatshirts as an exercise in community building rather than an exercise in rule making and following. As such it’s strongly positively encouraged but there’s no penalty or punishment for children who won’t or can’t, and no time or energy wasted on the matter. The kids on the whole are happy to wear the sweatshirt (or hoodie for p7) as a voluntary symbol of pride in the school community.

You are correct in saying that we do not enforce uniform. It is not legally enforceable though. Why penalise a primary age child for something they do not have control over?

No football tops is the only rule set in stone for obvious Scottish reasons.

You thought we had lots of men with guns outside because they couldn't get past a fence as opposed to the situation being rare?

Wasn't there a change in gun laws (or maybe just a gun amnesty?) after Dunblane?

Massive change in the law. Handguns (which he used) were essentially outlawed. Criminals still try to access them though.

School C- says it has uniform rule, but rarely enforces the rule, as the clothes a child wears may be the only clothes they have. This imo is lax as it implies rules are not important and leads to falling standards elsewhere.

Your friend, a primary teacher in Scotland, thinks a uniform policy that punishes those who can't afford uniform is desirable? A primary teacher in Scotland thinks that we shouldn't educate those who can't afford a formal uniform or who can't afford to keep on top of the washing? I think that would concern me more than a child not wearing regulation socks.

See I am genuinely interested in these differences and I didn't mean to seem Goady at all. I apologise if I have come across that way.

In terms of my wider motivations for starting the thread- I love Scotland. I lived there for very formative 4 years and visit multiple times a year, mostly to see Scottish friends and family. But lately, I've felt a sort of greater divergence or distance. I experienced anti English sentiment for the first time ever on my last trip to Edinburgh. I had some misgivings about the Scottish govt's covid restrictions and I have HUGE misgivings about the gender reform bill. So after this conversation with my friend I just wondered if education was another area where the differences are becoming more stark, although I know there have always been significant differences between the systems.

Who cares about uniform? Has absolutely nothing to do with education- it’s a weird English obsession. And I say that as a teacher of 27 years’ experience and parent of three. Policing uniform is a total waste of time and energy. Also self directed learning is a good thing.

Your friend, as one teacher out of thousands in Scotland, is entitled to her opinion if indeed that was what she actually meant - but of course it doesn’t make it true.

I feel like I'm being asked to explain my friends opinion here and obviously she isn't here to explain herself, so I don't really feel comfortable putting words into her mouth any more so to speak. I've given my account of what she said as best I can but I'm not going to say anymore about that.

I think that’s probably for the best. Your friend sounds as if she’d be better coming out of teaching - or at least teaching in a system where the Govt legislates for strict adherence to uniform.

I didn't mention punishment or withholding an education.

In my experience, in my dcs school for example, all students would be expected to wear the uniform. If the family couldn't afford it they would be given spares from the school's store of second hand uniform. (Parents are asked to donate to this when children outgrow uniform which they do so there is a large store). The children would not be allowed not to wear uniform, but they wouldn't be "punished" or denied an education.

You’re backtracking a bit now OP. You can’t deny your first few posts are a bit ‘I can’t believe how schools are allowed to be run in Scotland’. Just read them.

@stargirl1701 I know nothing about Glasgow schools. How is Jordanhill a state school but not LA run?

As such it’s strongly positively encouraged but there’s no penalty or punishment for children who won’t or can’t, and no time or energy wasted on the matter. The kids on the whole are happy to wear the sweatshirt (or hoodie for p7) as a voluntary symbol of pride in the school community.

My concern here would be that it would result in a sort of two tier system which would inadvertently expose which children were in poverty. Parents who could afford for their child to have the school sweatshirt would get it and it would become a sort of status symbol. Enforcing uniform rules avoids this, one could argue.

One could argue, but one would be wrong.

Biggest structural difference for pupils is the length of time spent in each phase of compulsory education.

The CfE is underpinned by the educational theory of social constructivism.

Teachers are more qualified in Scotland. They can teach in England but English teachers coming here must complete the beginning probationary year.

All teachers in Scotland must be registered by the GTC(S) including in the private sector. There is one pay scale. Teachers do not get 'more expensive' for a school due to their service length.

Local Authorities run schools. There are no Governors. No OFSTED. No DfE. No compulsory formal testing until the senior phase of secondary.

There is less obvious political interference. There are no diktats from a Ed Secretary like the Literacy Hour or the Govian era changes.

The CfE was agreed by all Scottish political parties. It does not need to be followed like the English National Curriculum - there is no legislation underpinning it's implementation.

It's a far less regimented Education system. Schools are explicitly expected to alter their provision to meet the needs of the context they serve. That does not mean lower standards though. The same Benchmarks exist for all.

a huge part of this never happening again is that the Uk has strict gun controls. I knew someone who worked in the armed response team in Scotland who never once had to use a firearm outside of training

Scottish and teaching for 14 years and no, this is not normal.

Do you need a shovel

You’re backtracking a bit now OP.

I was taken aback by how people suspected I had malign motives for my post, so I wanted to give more context.

If you think that is backtracking, so be it.

i much prefer the lax approach to uniform we have. Kids just wear white polo shirt, navy sweater and grey trousers. I really can’t imagine the logo’d apparel is a status symbol. I know my son starts out the term with a few logod polo shirts; but he gets them jnto some state that I end up buying the cheapest asda ones within a few weeks. For the logod sweaters, they last longer, and get handed down