Is this normal in Scottish primary schools?

[thewriteradmitsthat]

Have nc for this. I caught up this weekend with a friend who is a primary teacher in Scotland. I was struck by her description of schooling seemed so different from my experience in primary education in England especially in terms of safeguarding procedures and some aspects of the curriculum.

I have always admired the Scottish education system- I thought Highers, for example, were better than A levels, when I was doing a levels myself, as they seemed to offer a bit of a broader education with still Studying 5 subjects before university. But what she described shocked me and I'm not sure if standards have slipped in Scotland or if they have got left behind or if my experience in England is unusual.

This is the kind of thing she was describing:

Lax rules re uniform due to “poverty proofing”
Safeguarding laxness eg schools not having secure perimeter fence
Not the norm to have electronic sign in systems with photo ID and visitor lanyards- the norm in England
Emphasis on free play and discovery learning, carousels of activities where teacher facilitates, rather than directly and explicitly instructing them- normal in younger primary years in England but this was in older primary year’s eg p6 and p7
Lack of challenge in the curriculum eg maths- content not as challenging as what is required in ks2 sats and linked to the fact obviously no formal testing like in sats
iPads/chrome books for all students resulting in student doing very little handwritten work
Funding cuts so that schools have no janitors, and Principal Teacher roles being cut.

None of this applies in my kids school. DC1 is P6 and doing full learning not play based. He has actually just completed a maths homework challenge. DC2 in P2 does some playbased learning but a lot of structure learning. He did full play based P1 and it was nonsense and very little learning. Funding is an issue, permiter is secure, uniform is strict though not expensive (can be obtained second hand for free if needed easily), lanyards etc must be worn and visitor escorted round the school. Chromebook are given out from P6 to all students on preparation for secondary but hand writing and literacy is actually a massive focus in the school

No PE kit here at all with our school. Kids attend on PE days wearing leggings/joggers and jumpers/hoodies. It’s basically a non uniform day. It’s good not needing to have ‘another’ set of clothes which would get worn once a week and would be grown out of in half a year!

What would be the point in putting a 10 foot fence around a school in a small rural area where there has never been a problem with intruders?

It is what is expected in England tho. So just wondering if it was the same in Scotland but it's not.

Item 1 on the DfE doc about site security says this:

1.1 Perimeter
^The boundary is the first line of defence and should be protected with a secure fence or railings such as Weldmesh fencing to BS1722 or expanded metal or railings over 2.0m high.
Gates should be the same height as the fencing, fitted with anti-lift hinges, locking mechanisms that do not aid climbing and secured using an approved locking mechanism.^

I feel like people are getting defensive as they think I'm making a value judgement about some of these things. Some of them I am but re uniform, I totally get that there are arguments for and against and that very formal uniform, or any uniform at all, does not necessarily result in better educational standards. When I said "lax" in my OP I meant laxness in terms of the school sort of undermining their own rules although I haven't put that very well.

There are failings in the Scottish system, just none of them are the ones you highlight. Uniform above a certain standard, and particularly PE uniform, is inconsequential. Kids have access to technology, as they do in the private education sector and as they will in any workplace, this is a good thing. Infants learn better through play. Since some of the youngest school pupils in uk start earlier than almost anywhere in Europe there is good evidence to suggest this model works. Schools are secure, but they're not surrounded by electric fences.

Never been in to a school without being admitted by office staff, having to sign in/show ID and being escorted by a member of school staff

What an odd thing to post about. Every school is different, surely you know that. What is it you are attempting to achieve here?

I'm Just genuinely interested if this was common place! People start threads about all kinds of topics on mn, not sure why this is any different.

My primary age DC can leave the playground at lunchtime to play in the park next to the school. I think it’s great! Luckily he can wear trainers and cheap Tesco uniform.
Both DC have their own chromebooks. They do a mixture of handwritten and typed work.

Yup 2 metre high fencing around a one classroom school in Barra or Shetland sounds entirely reasonable.

This is not a thing in Scotland and I'm quite glad it's not!

I think it’s really interesting actually. It’s amazing how people have come to view certain things as indicators of a “good school” when they might have nothing to do with learning (eg formal uniform) and also the idea that a big fence is really important for safeguarding. Having lived in both England and Scotland I think there are definitely cultural differences at play.

If all the negative things you mentioned are commonplace?

No.

What positive things did your friend say about Scottish schools in comparison to English schools?

I had reason to visit our small, island community primary school recently. My son attended years ago but I'm no longer known in the school. I entered the playground and pressed the bell on the front door. A P6 or P7 pupil answered the door and asked who I'd like to speak to then took me to see the HT. I thought it was a lovely welcome.

I'm guessing a member of staff observed me via CCTV before the pupil was allowed to open the door. The pupils from this school are allowed to walk to and from school unaccompanied and the wider community are welcome at concerts and prize giving. It's a great wee school and my son loved his time there.

Yes I’m sure a lanyard would have stopped Thomas Hamilton!

especially as he drove into school grounds and parked in the school car park. Something which is entirely possible in many English schools. As is walking in via the gate. Do they all fail ofsted?

Here is a very standard sort of entrance to a village primary near me, taken off google maps. The front doors will be locked with an entryphone, but fence/ gate- not so much. Hopefully there is a more accessible entrance elsewhere...😳

Surely the fencing is risk assessed, my kids school has fencing far higher than 2m as they have an ASN base unit and are next to a busy road. This wouldn’t be necessary in a remote rural community. Lots of security would seem unnecessary in places where everyone knows everyone and no one locks their doors.

In Scotland I think it’s more common for the school campus to have community facilities like pools and leisure centres which are open to the public. Also school playgrounds if owned by the council have to be left open so everyone can use them outside of school hours.

My dd in P2 does some learning through play but is also being stretched perfectly in maths, the two aren’t exclusive!

We’re English but live in Scotland, there are definitely good and bad points about each system. One of my favourite bits about Scotland is they start school when they are a little bit older.

'I feel like people are getting defensive as they think I'm making a value judgement about some of these things. Some of them I am.'

Care to expand?

My kids have been in both English and Scottish primarys. Neither had/have secure/high perimeter fences. Both had buzzer entry into school but the English one had no secure doors after that. The Scottish one does.

I never saw a janitor in the English one but the Scottish one has one, he's used to supervise the playground before the bell goes. During school hours the TAs monitor breaks.

What positive things did your friend say about Scottish schools in comparison to English schools?

Well she was having a whinge tbh which is fine but she did point out some positives- smaller class sizes (at her school), later start date, different (less punitive?) inspection system. They also finish early on a Friday!

@ScotsLassie322 I did expand in my OP- it's obvious that there are some things I'm unconvinced about. Uniform less so. I also expanded in the post you quoted, cut short then asked me to expand upon!

Greater Manchester and our school def does not have a secure perimeter fence or electronic sign in (though I know most local schools do have this)

Nope, none of that is true at our school.

Actually they are a wee bit relaxed about uniform but I only see that as a good thing.

At her school being the operative phrase there.

Interested to know why you didn’t open with a general comparison of the positives and negatives as your friend has experienced them?

Wait until you find out we let secondary school pupils out of the school grounds at lunchtime. That caused accusations of safeguarding failures on another thread.

Well I suppose the overall impression she gave was broadly negative so I led with that. Not sure why you think my posts should follow a particular structure which you approve of?