Is this normal in Scottish primary schools?

[thewriteradmitsthat]

Have nc for this. I caught up this weekend with a friend who is a primary teacher in Scotland. I was struck by her description of schooling seemed so different from my experience in primary education in England especially in terms of safeguarding procedures and some aspects of the curriculum.

I have always admired the Scottish education system- I thought Highers, for example, were better than A levels, when I was doing a levels myself, as they seemed to offer a bit of a broader education with still Studying 5 subjects before university. But what she described shocked me and I'm not sure if standards have slipped in Scotland or if they have got left behind or if my experience in England is unusual.

This is the kind of thing she was describing:

Lax rules re uniform due to “poverty proofing”
Safeguarding laxness eg schools not having secure perimeter fence
Not the norm to have electronic sign in systems with photo ID and visitor lanyards- the norm in England
Emphasis on free play and discovery learning, carousels of activities where teacher facilitates, rather than directly and explicitly instructing them- normal in younger primary years in England but this was in older primary year’s eg p6 and p7
Lack of challenge in the curriculum eg maths- content not as challenging as what is required in ks2 sats and linked to the fact obviously no formal testing like in sats
iPads/chrome books for all students resulting in student doing very little handwritten work
Funding cuts so that schools have no janitors, and Principal Teacher roles being cut.

The uniform “laxness” isn’t new, when I was at secondary school we literally didn’t have a uniform, I don’t mean in the way schools just have set colours... I mean, we just talk wore our own clothes and there was no code whatsoever.

But there’s no legally enforceable uniform code in Scotland, they do ban certain things in secondary particularly but they can’t insist on particular items or refuse to educate children because of haircuts etc.

In part it’s because we don’t have the stupid free market pick a school system, in England because parents have chosen that school they’re agreeing to abide by things like the uniform rules.

Fencing - a lot of schools do have high secure fencing, newer ones all do, but, it tends to be to secure the building not the grounds.

And If it's been Outstanding "since the 90s" don't be surprised if it gets downgraded at the next inspection btw. Happening to most long-standing outstanding schools.

Again with the "most".

What are you basing this on? How many long standing outstanding schools have been inspected recently and how many were downgraded? Please share a link to the stats.

In the large conurbation in which I live in the north of England, the vast vast majority of secondary schools have a high perimeter fence.

Funny thing, I too live in the North of England. There are 2 secondary schools in my town, both within a 10-15 minute walk of my house. NEITHER have high perimeter fences.

There are another 6 within a 30 minute drive. Only 1 has a high perimeter fence.

So I could sit here and say "most secondary schools don't have high perimeter fences" but there's a possibility I'd be entirely wrong.

Please stop spouting your opinion based on a very narrow sample as fact, it's not helping your cause and what is getting other posters heckles up.

This school uniform stigma just doesn't exist here op. I can't speak for the whole nation of course but generally speaking, we don't have a uniform obsessed culture.

At dc's primary school kids wear the general colours of navy bottoms and yellow polo shirt and it can be logo or non logo, nobody cares. Trainers/school shoes/moon boots...take your pick, it doesn't matter. Pe kit doesn't exist it's just shorts/leggings and a tshirt (or house colour tshirt if you want to, £3 from school uniform shop).

As a previous poster said, the one over-arching uniform rule across the land is "no football colours" which clearly says more about our culture than anything else!

Jordanhill school is a non-selective comprehensive school (like all Scottish state schools). It's grant funded direct by the Scottish govt
The unique funding is a carry over from it's start as a demonstration school for teacher trainees at Jordanhill College of Education.

@FrangipaniBlue there was a report in the news the other day that OFSTED had downgraded 80% of previously outstanding schools in the last year. Most of these schools were now graded good. One of the reasons is that the way schools are measured as outstanding has changed since these schools were originally inspected

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-63713880.amp

@FrangipaniBlue here you go, from last week.

@heymammy yes, I remember going to a pub in Edinburgh as a student, and seeing a sign which said "no football colours" and a friend explained it all to me. I was pretty baffled as an 18 year old as a football strip was the obvious choice to wear to the pub in the city in NE England where I had come from.

A lot of what you say is true to a point but imo certainly not a bad thing. Our schools for example don't have compulsory super expensive uniforms like some of my friends in England. You can get school logo sweatshirts but you can also buy your uniform from Asda if that suits. No £25 socks just to wear for an hour at PE etc.

'Safeguarding' is indeed more lax ime - if you consider 8/9 year olds gaining independence by walking short distances to school a safe guarding issue - I don't! I've never come across a fenced in school, prison style here but I've also never come across one that the staff don't have lanyards. Every school I've been to does have some form of locking security system. Some more robust than others. There has always been sign in books for official visitors.

Many schools are moving towards play based learning at early level. Some are extending that model up the years in primary. Doesn't mean they are just pleasing themselves. It's teaching independence and critical thinking. The level of maths, reading expectations certainly seem lower than my friends dc in various areas in England in the earlier years of primary but through seeing what was being given out as work throughout lockdown for my p6 dc and friends kids in England of the same age, they were very much at the same stage by then.

Not all areas have individual iPads. Ours have them from p5 upwards but this has only been rolled out last term. It's been a massive help to my dyslexic s2 and also to my p5 who has no diagnosis but has tendencies and is being monitored. They both still do plenty handwritten work.

Our schools here all have janitors that I know of Sometimes shared!

Can't comment on principal teachers anywhere but my DC's school and the one I currently work in but we have them

Not sure why you're surprised that schooling in a different country with a different curriculum is different. Personally I'm very happy with the differences.

I'd love to see more classroom assistants which is something that I think England resources better

I'm not actually sure that's the case. I'm a classroom assistant and judging by the daily posts by TA's in England having to actually plan and teach classes for no more money than I get (sometimes less) is eye opening. The expectations are crazy to me that counties are experiencing. Fwiw we have 5 sometimes 6 assistants over 2 p2 classes alone where I work. There's definitely no massive shortage

In my experience, in my dcs school for example, all students would be expected to wear the uniform. If the family couldn't afford it they would be given spares from the school's store of second hand uniform.

We do this regularly. It doesn't mean the child would come in wearing it the next day or in 2 days time though. You can't keep giving a new on out every day! It's really not a big enough deal. We do heavily discourage hoodies though.

I assume that reflects the area? I'm actually glad my DC's secondary which is walking distance to the city centre just has the same iron fence that has been standing there since it was built in the 1800's. You can walk right up to the front door and the side playground entrances are wide open. No need for 8ft fences, metal detectors and monitoring if students. If they want to pop out at lunch they can. Dd often runs home on her break as she's forgotten her lunch or pe kit

Nowhere in that article does it mention ANYTHING about them being downgraded because of the size of their fences which is what you were implying would happen to the school I referenced.

The 80% downgraded could be absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the height of their perimeter fences.

It was 80% of the ones revisited but they only revisited ones where specific concerns had been raised.

It was not 80% of all outstanding schools and therefore not "most" as the OP stated.

Outstanding schools used to only be visited if there were concerns, the general exemption from visits was lifted in 2020, now OFSTED have a programme to visit all schools that had been judged outstanding starting with the schools that have gone the longest since their last inspection. So not all inspections have been triggered by a concern. All outstanding schools that were previously exempt will be inspected by August 2026

@FrangipaniBlue I was going to explain why you are wrong about there being specific concerns but @toomuchlaundry has beaten me to it. It is no longer the case that there has to be a specific concern raised, and hasn't been since 2020. The bbc reports that 80% have been downgraded of those inspected in the last year, and this looks to be a a pattern that will continue under the new framework. Therefore I was right to say "most".

You have inferred a link between that and the perimeter fencing. I simply said that most outstanding schools are being downgraded, which is true. I didn't mention fences at this point, although I can cite examples where site security is a factor in a judgment if you want. In the meantime I think you owe me an apology.

This is what I said @FrangipaniBlue

And If it's been Outstanding "since the 90s" don't be surprised if it gets downgraded at the next inspection btw. Happening to most long-standing outstanding schools.

I think it is obvious I was speaking in more general terms here and there is no mention of fences.

The fencing discussion reminds me of a thread where English city-based MNers were appalled that parents sometimes spoke to their DCs in the playground. There was a real lack of understanding of rural schools, community schools and city schools in Scotland and how school/parent/family relationships are built here.
Yy our school has a fence, a locked door and lanyards. But it also has staff (teaching, admin and janitorial) that know every pupil and family even with nursery, primary and high school on the one campus.

Re Redeployment, yes it means I can be asked to move wherever they ask. Currently 20 EYPs have been deployed to the Special Schools to support as they are having a staffing issue and to help while they recruit more staff. My setting had an EYP deployed while I was off long term sick post surgery as their nursery was staffed for their new building and there weren’t enough children as the new building wasn’t open.