SNP stance on pensions

[Mountaingoat12]

The SNP - in all of its past independence propositions - have been wildly optimistic, but with their latest stance on pensions they have moved to actually gaslighting their supporters. I just cannot comprehend it.

In 2014 the independence white paper stated that after independence, Indy Scotland would pay Scottish pensions. They seem to now be saying that following independence the rest of the UK (I.e. England, Wales and Northern Ireland) will be responsible for paying Scottish pensions, which is just not at all true. Never has been, never will be. I find it just unfathomable. Trying to actually gaslight the electorate???

So what happens if everyone votes Tory instead Alice? Tories are second behind the SNP in Scotland iirc. SNP voters aren't necessarily left wing, remember they were formerly known as the tartan Tories. Social attitude studies don't show Sots as very different than rUK in terms of attitude

Are you going to carve Scotland up further until you get a bit that just voted for a socialist government? 🤔

@alicesfavouritepen

The severe financial consequences of secession are hypothetical.

What in the same way that the negative consequences of brexit were hypothetical according to brexit voters?🤔

Or were they in actuality entirely predictable?

@Rainbowshit then that's the government we as a country would have voted for. I must admit that your post did me laugh though. I don't think anyone is expecting a Tory landslide do you? And if there is well then so be it. That's democracy. I really can't see it though 🤣

[quote alicesfavouritepen]@Rainbowshit then that's the government we as a country would have voted for. I must admit that your post did me laugh though. I don't think anyone is expecting a Tory landslide do you? And if there is well then so be it. That's democracy. I really can't see it though 🤣 [/quote]
Was the wholesale shift from Labour to SNP predicted? Labour got too comfortable in just the same way the SNP are just now. A shift in voting patterns seems way overdue.

I don't think a shift to the right in Scotland would be completely unexpected for the reasons I gave below.

@Rainbowshit I await with interest the up to date financial analysis of independence. We can at least be sure that the SG won't get away with gaslighting folk the way Boris et al did over Brexit. Everything they suggest will be intensely scrutinised and I very much welcome that. We do, particularly off the back of the lies peddled during the brexit referendum, need to be fully informed of the financial consequences - both best and worst case scenarios.

[quote alicesfavouritepen]@Rainbowshit then that's the government we as a country would have voted for. I must admit that your post did me laugh though. I don't think anyone is expecting a Tory landslide do you? And if there is well then so be it. That's democracy. I really can't see it though 🤣 [/quote]
Oh and having a Tory government in the Uk is also democracy. Scottish voters votes counted equally to other voters. One person one vote.

Well I would be stunned to see a shift to the right on the scale we have seen in England but you are of course correct in that none of us have a crystal ball.

Labour were deserted in droves in the first instance though for being seen as getting into bed with the Tories in 2014 if you remember. That stemmed from a real repulsion that Labour had let their key voting demographic down. I think we are still generally pretty disgusted by most things right wing in Scotland but we all exist in our own echo chambers to a degree I suppose.

@alicesfavouritepen

The severe financial consequences of secession are hypothetical.

Not really that hypothetical with a hard border between main trading area required and confirmed (which SNP stated already), blocked out of the EU market by Spain (again already confirmed years ago Spain is hardly going to have changed their minds given the Basque country and Catalan issue) a huge pitfall in funding to be found with taxation increase the only realistic option and no current plan for a currency.....

I mean if this was the main MN forum and a relationship thread there would be 10 pages of posters saying look at the red flags and the OP saying but he loves me......🙄

[quote alicesfavouritepen]@Rainbowshit I await with interest the up to date financial analysis of independence. We can at least be sure that the SG won't get away with gaslighting folk the way Boris et al did over Brexit. Everything they suggest will be intensely scrutinised and I very much welcome that. We do, particularly off the back of the lies peddled during the brexit referendum, need to be fully informed of the financial consequences - both best and worst case scenarios. [/quote]
But we damn well know they will try and gaslight as they are no better then Boris. Look at the gaslighting in the past week.

The unchanged changed stance on pensions and the budgeted for cuts to fire doors that apparently never were policy. 🤔

I mean if this was the main MN forum and a relationship thread there would be 10 pages of posters saying look at the red flags and the OP saying but he loves me......🙄

What a very strange comparison. As an analogy I don't see how it works tbh expect to be a bit of a dig.

@alicesfavouritepen

Well I would be stunned to see a shift to the right on the scale we have seen in England but you are of course correct in that none of us have a crystal ball.

Labour were deserted in droves in the first instance though for being seen as getting into bed with the Tories in 2014 if you remember. That stemmed from a real repulsion that Labour had let their key voting demographic down. I think we are still generally pretty disgusted by most things right wing in Scotland but we all exist in our own echo chambers to a degree I suppose.

Yet you expect a Labour government post independence?!?!! 😂😂

Just the inconsistent thinking we've come to expect from nats I guess.

@alicesfavouritepen

I mean if this was the main MN forum and a relationship thread there would be 10 pages of posters saying look at the red flags and the OP saying but he loves me......🙄

What a very strange comparison. As an analogy I don't see how it works tbh expect to be a bit of a dig.

Not a dig at all just I don't know how the financial implications can be hypothetical when there are many many many warning signs directly to that exact thing not of course missing the fact that Scotland has a lower percentage of people actually working and being charged income tax!

@Rainbowshit yes I would expect a Labour government post independence. I'm not sure why that's so funny or indeed why the comment I've posted would be me contradicting myself. It would be a completely different political landscape. Even in recent months we have seen a recognition of that from Labour. Anas Sarwar, for example, has taken great great pains to distance himself and the party from all things Tory.

@Scottishskifun it's all hypothetical though. The current financial case for independence hasn't been made yet. As was the case in 2014 it will be and we can all pick over it then.

Your analogy sees me as the lone idiotic poster being told the truth by a whole raft of intelligent and all knowing posters. That only works if I'm the only independence supporter in Scotland (I'm not) and you lot are economic experts telling absolute truths (I'm guessing you're not).

You are of course entitled to not want want independence and to actively argue against it. That's democracy. The constant suggestion though that everyone who wants independence is thick or ignorant is very tiring.

Not a lone poster at all as said previously I have friends who are in favour of it but all have rose tinted glasses on about the financial implications of it or their head in the sands.
The previous financial position was then to shreds yet all that responded in was they are lying regardless of which economist or institutions gave the warning hnlessbit was the SG economist then it was all foul play cry.

I would like to see some independence supporters provide real substance it's clear to see that it has to be paid for so that's not hypothetical thats reality. Your right I'm not an economist but I do numbers as I have been clear on scotnet in the past mostly statistical.

Okay so you're an expert because you 'do numbers' but you reckon that the SNP have not bothered at all to consult anyone who also 'does numbers'. All of the supporters of independence are either numerically illiterate or in denial? I do find that peculiar tbh but I'm genuinely in awe of your confidence.

I have a friend of a friend who has a PhD in statistics and works at Glasgow Uni. She's also an independence supporter. I'll need to let her know she's in denial or just doesn't get it.

So the SNP won't gaslight us, even though that's what they constantly do at the moment, they'll be under intense scrutiny even though they currently do exactly what they want with no oversight or accountability, there will somehow be a Labour government anyway post-independence and a newly-skint country will be a great place to be poor?
Sounds legit.

My job is to build and validate financial models that project financial scenarios. What I do is heavily scrutinised and audited because of the implications for our customers.

So I feel I'm in a better place than most to look at the financial case for independence.

There are many other scotsnet posters who work in such areas. Guess what? They also think the financial case doesn't stack up.

As far as I can see the independence side have a blogger, a cartographer and a laser guy.

People need real facts and figures not wishy washy flag waving nonsense.

Last time they made lots of noise about getting rid of trident. I'm not convinced that reducing our defences is a good idea the way Russia is behaving.

The North Sea not much oil or gas left in the North Sea. And we want to cut back fossil fuels . So little money there.

*My job is to build and validate financial models that project financial scenarios. What I do is heavily scrutinised and audited because of the implications for our customers.

So I feel I'm in a better place than most to look at the financial case for independence.

There are many other scotsnet posters who work in such areas. Guess what? They also think the financial case doesn't stack up.

As far as I can see the independence side have a blogger, a cartographer and a laser guy.*

That sounds very impressive. You are clearly understandably proud of what sounds like a very high level position. You say you feel like you're in a better place than most to think that the financial case doesn't stack up. Can I ask why you think that is? Do you have access to government level information as per of your job or do you just google your research? Are you a specialist in the economies of countries, specifically those which are transitioning into independence, or are you just good with numbers?

As I've said on a previous post I'm very interested to see the economic case for independence that the SNP put forward and then I'm very much looking forward to a range of economic experts picking over them.

@Lockdownbear

People need real facts and figures not wishy washy flag waving nonsense.

Last time they made lots of noise about getting rid of trident. I'm not convinced that reducing our defences is a good idea the way Russia is behaving.

The North Sea not much oil or gas left in the North Sea. And we want to cut back fossil fuels . So little money there.

Do you think nuking them would be better? 🤔

Well what's to stop them deciding that an outpost in the Atlantic wouldn't be a bad thing?

If they decided to invade Scotland our 5 million vs them we'd be wiped out.

Who if anyone would step in to help us?

@Lockdownbear are you actually serious or are you kidding?

I'm deadly serious, if Scotland scraped its weapons, and someone, Russia, China, Islamic State, anyone else decided to attack.
Who (if anyone) would help us?