SNP stance on pensions

[Mountaingoat12]

The SNP - in all of its past independence propositions - have been wildly optimistic, but with their latest stance on pensions they have moved to actually gaslighting their supporters. I just cannot comprehend it.

In 2014 the independence white paper stated that after independence, Indy Scotland would pay Scottish pensions. They seem to now be saying that following independence the rest of the UK (I.e. England, Wales and Northern Ireland) will be responsible for paying Scottish pensions, which is just not at all true. Never has been, never will be. I find it just unfathomable. Trying to actually gaslight the electorate???

The border areas were a clear No if I remember the last time.

@Scottishskifun

Yep higher earners already pay several thousand more than English counterparts. The industries which have higher earners (financial for example) have already said they would move office locations.

Whenever I ask a friend who is in favour of independence about higher taxes her response is always the same.....it won't happen or its worth the cost........with astronomical prices this year for for food, fuel, power and goods I wonder even a 20% increase in taxes (not the higher rate predicted to find the shortfall as is let alone double pensions) can realistically be afforded by even middle of the road families.

But whenever I ask this question its like head in the sand! I completely get a passion but the reality is completely separate.

Are nationalists really happy being broke for the next decade? No holidays, struggling to afford basics even more?!

I worked my arse off to get out of 30K of debt the thought of financial instability fills me with dread and makes me feel sick!

Most people pay less tax in Scotland than they would do if they were a resident in England.

How much of a wage are you referring to if you pay 'several thousands of pounds more' per annum?

People like Doctors will be taxed higher in Scotland than England.

While houses are generally cheaper, their is bound to be pockets in England and Wales with equally cheap housing.

If tax rises significantly these people will move. Up sticks and move. Everywhere in the UK has a shortage of Doctors and nurses. How many Doctors do you know married to other medical people?
Dead easy for them both to find work, that's if they don't decide Canada, Auz, New Zealand are better options.

There won’t be any Scottish MPs at Westminster, emphasising that the balance of power would be on the side of the rUK government after the leave date.

This suggestion of reliance on rUK, which will then be another country, for state pensions is naive, or just plain stupid.

DH and I have talked at length about this.

If Scotland were to become independent, we'd reluctantly up and leave for England. We have family in England so that is an added incentive.

Many friends (mostly higher tax payers) have said the same, although they are born and bred Scots without familial ties to England.

@StarryEyeSurprise I seem to remember the line for paying more tax than rUK being around £25k. It may technically be true that more people in Scotland fall below this line than above it as we tend to have low wages, but there are still plenty above the line who are worse off, including most Drs, nurses, teachers, business people etc. These people tend to be the most mobile too.

Some points from a letter in Times today.

SNP points out that the success of other small countries shows an Independent Scotland could do equally well .

However every starting point is different . Most of these countries have built trust over a long period and if they run a deficit they can borrow at good rates .

Lithuania , Estonia and Latvia are used as examples . They did not take on any of the Soviet debt and many of their young have left to work elsewhere.

On Secession Scotland will have to negotiate
a national debt ( in which the UK will hold all the cards) of around £180 billion and a deficit of about £15 billion . Interest rates on borrowing would be punitive . On Independence Day the IMF would be in the room spelling out the conditions for spending and tax . As the writer says think Greece after the Euro crisis but many times worse .

And for those that think our hands are tied at present because we can’t borrow money , that is untrue . All devolved nations can borrow on the bond markets . They choose not to - suspect independence is too scary for them too .

The SNP like to look like they tax the rich.
I saw an example of a married couple where one earns £50 k and the other earns minimal or nothing. They will have lost their Married tax allowance transfer plus being in the higher tax band they will be £150 a month worse off than if in England.
If that same couple live in a Band E property they will be paying proportionately more council tax because the SNP raised the multipliers for Band E and above properties to "tax the rich"
Of course the SNP didn't link it to a Revaluation (last done 1991) and hence you see Band D properties selling for £450k whilst Band F properties sell for £180k. Looks like they really tax the rich there.
Say the above couple have neighbours earning £26k each and living in a Band D property. They are better off than the first couple but get taxed less by the SNP as they are not "rich" but the first couple are "rich". Plus they will get £150 to help living expenses from the SNP but the first couple will not.

The Council Tax which the SNP said they would abolish - they haven't and in fact have made it an even more unjust tax by the fiddling as told above. They don't care though as long as it looks like they are taxing the rich more and to hell with the people who fall into the gaps.

@starryeyesuprise the threshold for paying more tax then in England is 25k hardly mega bucks. The rate for paying 41% is 43k so starting to get into large differences with English counterparts who pay 40% is 50k plus.
So actually we aren't talking mega rich superstar jobs but managers, civil servants, Dr's, senior teachers etc etc etc.

I always come back to the question, in what way would independence improve our lives?

@WouldBeGood

I always come back to the question, in what way would independence improve our lives?

We would stand a chance of having a government that we actually voted for.

Could Alice’s pen please further her thoughts on what the Government that “we would have voted for “ actually do . Who would they be ?
Would like to see inside an independence seekers head in a totally non aggressive way .

@alicesfavouritepen last time I checked that already occurred due to devolution........
The SNP is in charge of education, health, social care, housing law, environmental matters.......many of which are in crisis only due to the Scottish government...... you really want them to have more powers when they extend covid rules because they want to, refuse to provide scientific evidence for the majority of their "protections" or having driven the NHS into the ground long before covid just because of big bad Westminster rhetoric?!
Jesus wept!

We would stand a chance of having a government that we actually voted for

And what material improvement would we see from this?

[quote Scottishskifun]@alicesfavouritepen last time I checked that already occurred due to devolution........
The SNP is in charge of education, health, social care, housing law, environmental matters.......many of which are in crisis only due to the Scottish government...... you really want them to have more powers when they extend covid rules because they want to, refuse to provide scientific evidence for the majority of their "protections" or having driven the NHS into the ground long before covid just because of big bad Westminster rhetoric?!
Jesus wept![/quote]
I don't want an SNP run independent Scotland.

Could Alice’s pen please further her thoughts on what the Government that “we would have voted for “ actually do . Who would they be ?
Would like to see inside an independence seekers head in a totally non aggressive way .

I'm a bit confused about your aggression comments tbh but I'll try to answer your question.

They would, I imagine, be a Labour or a Labouresque government who would actually give a shit about the poorest and weakest in society. I would like to see some economic fairness and not the constant acceptance that the rich get richer and the poor continually suffer. That is not going to happen in a United Kingdom.

I think we could achieve that in Scotland as it is, if the SNP disbanded leaving room for votes for a socialist party.

Re aggression: don’t want this to turn into a rant against you , just would like to hear what independant seekers thoughts are on how things could be better when we have our present devolved government in Edinburgh .However would also like to know it is to be achieved re above financial comments . Independence to my mind would plunge many more into poverty . Ireland has been independent for years and their childhood poverty is much the same as ours .

I don't think we could. Even if we all voted Labour that's not enough to get them in if voting trends continue as they are in England. How frustrating is that? Why should we settle for that? Support for Labour in England is bizarrely at an all time low despite the fact that we have a lying, cretinous, self serving Tory as a prime minister and Keir Starmer is a centre centre, articulate, reasonable and educated man. What will it actually take to resuscitate Labour because at this point I'm genuinely despairing. There comes a point that we need to accept, that for whatever reason, there is an increasing political and cultural difference between the two countries.

@annabelindajane

Re aggression: don’t want this to turn into a rant against you , just would like to hear what independant seekers thoughts are on how things could be better when we have our present devolved government in Edinburgh .However would also like to know it is to be achieved re above financial comments . Independence to my mind would plunge many more into poverty . Ireland has been independent for years and their childhood poverty is much the same as ours .

Well according to action for poverty who are a uk wide charity 24% of children in Scotland live in poverty compared to 30% in England. So I'm not sure why a continued alliance with them would help our child poverty figures? I also don't see an argument that staying in the UK guarantees economic stability. We are facing the worst cost of living increase for over 30 years directly because of the arrogance and self serving priorities of a Tory Government.

I struggle to see how the weakest and poorest in society benefit from massive constitutional upheaval and the severe financial consequences of secession. Quite the opposite, they will almost certainly be the hardest hit. If that's really the aim, we'd be much better off with people who know what they're doing and will use the considerable powers already held at Holyrood to achieve this rather than trying to stoke division and wasting God only knows how much on trying to persuade people to vote for Independence.

The severe financial consequences of secession are hypothetical.

I struggle to see how the weakest and poorest will benefit from staying in a union where the government are pretty open in both actions and words that they don't give a shit about them.

But labour don't do that well up here currently (I say this as a labour voter). I don't think people vote SNP because they see a means to an end they will then vote them because they got independence through bit like some vote tory into WM for getting brexit done.
The well known SE Asia phrase same same but different springs to mind!

With greater tax levels the rich will use smart accountants and atoll be rich whilst more are broke not less.

@Scottishskifun

But labour don't do that well up here currently (I say this as a labour voter). I don't think people vote SNP because they see a means to an end they will then vote them because they got independence through bit like some vote tory into WM for getting brexit done. The well known SE Asia phrase same same but different springs to mind!

With greater tax levels the rich will use smart accountants and atoll be rich whilst more are broke not less.

Well I do vote for them as a means to an end. As do many others I know. You may not think that's the case but for many it is. Labour in Scotland have been utterly useless and misjudged and insulted those who should be their core vote time and time again. I see absolutely no reason why anyone would vote for SNP once independence has been achieved. I would hope for a strong Labour resurgence. I would also like to see a Green Party with less controversial views on gender and religious education emerge as well. I feel there is space for a real plurality of centre left parties and that's exciting.