Guilt Free Railing 12

[WouldBeGood]

The railing goes on

@ssd it does occur but less frequently for example a prison report out of 13 transgender interviewed 11 were male to female identification so 2 were female to male.

www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/resources/opaque-and-overdue-scottish-prison-service-trans-prisoner-policy-review

It has certainly lead to an increase in humorous come backs, such as 'I self ID as a 70 year old' to gain free bus travel etc.

Yes, I'm not sure why the safety of trans people is womens' problem to fix. We've fought for generations for our own safety, now we're meant to a) give up that which we won and b) make men the centre of any discussions about safety and c) pretend we don't care.

@mibbelucieachwell

Thanks for that resilience. But it's the principle of changing a factual, legal historical document apart from anything else. Why not have a category called 'identifying as trans' which would allow for dignified, respectful treatment of trans identifying people? I see what you mean though that continued protection of women only spaces does make NS' comment that women's concern are not valid seem slightly less inflammatory.

For this piece of legislation to be a priority of the government concerns me about their judgment. The SG (like many other governments) has been very unsupportive of people who have been harassed and threatened by bullying TRA's. Their uncritical use of groups that claim that some people are incorrectly assigned a sex/gender at birth is deeply suspect IMO.

Where's the discussion about why there has been a more than 4,000% increase in females identifying as males? Or the huge increase in males identifying as females? Sorry I can't remember the stat for that.

Part of their campaign for independence was that Scotland would become fairer and more progressive (than the UK). Presumably this is one way of demonstrating how progressive they are? Uk govt has shelved its reform of the GRA.

I wonder what Jason Leitch, a practicing evangelical Christian thinks about this.

Kaye Adams on Radio Scot now discussing vaccine passports and saying that more people in Scotland are dieing of alcohol abuse than covid.

Yes - I see the issue with changing the legal and factual documents. It just seems wrong to me. People can't change sex, and it can't be "incorrectly assigned at birth" (apart from in very few cases, totally separate from the trans issue!). Changing it is just a lie. I didn't get my birth certificate changed when I changed my surname on marriage even though I am fully accepted by the state as "me" under my new name. My surname at birth remains in the record as just that. If I need to, I present that, and then my marriage cert (or deed poll or other proof that I'd been using my new name) to prove I'm the same person. I don't know why a GRC can't be something like that, to prove a formal "recognition" of your preferred gender and allow it to be used for formal occasions, but your actual sex is kept as it is.

I fully accept I just don't understand the concept of gender full stop. I'd always assumed up til the past couple of years that it was just "invented" as an alternative to "sex" to stop teenage boys writing "yes please" next to sex on forms But I have no idea what it means to "identify as a woman/ man" other than being a woman/ man and having experiences associated with being that sex. Anything else just seems to be stereotyping (girls are quiet and well behaved and nurturing and need to look pretty... ), and I thought we were supposed to be getting away from that - not saying that anyone who is quiet and well behaved etc is a girl! If that is what people are being told, no wonder it's appealing to feel like you are the opposite sex if you don't 100% fit the stereotype of your own, but also get to feel a bit cool and different and get to see the other sex in the nuddy...

I admit I still find the concept of men dressing in a "feminine" way (whatever that actually means) a bit surprising - but there's nothing inherently wrong with it. And if more did it openly, it would become more common. Just like women wearing "masculine" clothes and looking androgynous is now more acceptable. But they would still be men, and that's fine. Why does having that urge make them eligible to undress in women's spaces or take the space of a woman in a sports team or on a company board or whatever? It just seems to be taking two totally separate concepts and smooshing them together and saying they are the same thing.

And I agree, for the SNP to be farting around with this (easy win, presumably) when there are so many other issues they should be focusing on does show a distinct lack of judgement. But that's not a surprise really

The whole thing sounds like a bag of worms. Is it fashionable to be seen to be on the side of someone who wants to identify as another sex and to allow them to go wherever they choose? And its all turned a bit sinister and law enforceable? When did all these new laws come into force? And why are governments so afraid of stonewall?

Is anyone significant standing up for women??

JK Rowling
Graham Linehan

Struggling to think of any more to be honest. You have to be willing to lose your livelihood essentially, if you want to speak up. Doesn't matter quite so much to JK, but Graham Linehan has lost his income, his career, and his marriage.

Now, if this were really a fair 'both sides' debate, would that be the case? Of course not. It has become utterly forbidden to ask questions, to mention that gender may be fluid but that sex is a fact, to point out that a man who says he is a woman can tweet 'TERFs should die in a grease fire' and suffer no consequences.

See also primogeniture

A first born girl can't identity as male to get a place in the House of Lords if she has a younger brother.

It stinks, but even stinkier than when it matter men know what a women is, also see for 'relationship purposes'

Anyone reading this thinking argh this is too much to get my head round, please please don't.

So much is patiently explained by much more eloquent posters than me.

I fear that once we lose the definition of women completely we'll never get it back.

Is it fashionable to be seen to be on the side of someone who wants to identify as another sex and to allow them to go wherever they choose?
I think the issue is that transpeople ARE vulnerable and are often discriminated against. And eg trans women report experiencing misogyny AND transphobia at the same time, so extra levels of discrimination. And everyone wants to ensure that transpeople can live free of this discrimination and prejudice as they should be able to have the same life opportunities and rights as anyone else. All well and good.

But women are also discriminated against/ more vulnerable than men, and are protected and have certain rights as a result of that. I think the issue is that lots of men people think that women should have a lesser level of protection than "proper" minorities. So should be the ones to give up their rights/ special places for others. Because we don't really need them at all and are just being uppity and aggressive by excluding others who allegedly have as much right. Though, as others have pointed out, as soon as you start including anyone who isn't a woman in the category of "woman" you start including men. Who are kind of the reason we need separate spaces in the first place!

Of course, there are other protected characteristics that are entitled to have facilities/ services for them too, but it really only seems to be gender reassignment that causes this kerfuffle or righteous indignation in society as a whole. No one is really fighting for the rights of wheelchair users, or religious people or old people or gay people except those who are directly affected. And they are brave and determined and generally applauded. But as soon as women start doing that, we are bigots and exclusive

Bizarrely, Duncan Bannatyne is speaking out 😃

@ResilienceWanker 👍

Im scared to ask, but who is pro all this shit?

@ssd

Im scared to ask, but who is pro all this shit?

The SNP government. Nicola Sturgeon and Humza Yousaf.

And particularly their wee mates in the Greens. And lots of "woke" young men who are quite happy to trample all over women and girls.

Also railing at University shite, DS has just been on a zoom induction to be told he is going to be in university THREE TIMES this entire semester.

Fucks sake.

@KingsleyShacklebolt

Also railing at University shite, DS has just been on a zoom induction to be told he is going to be in university THREE TIMES this entire semester.

Fucks sake.

That's utterly shit.

@ssd

Im scared to ask, but who is pro all this shit?

There's been mention of generous donations.

Why the SNP have alighted on this cause who tf knows otherwise.

@mibbelucieachwell - brilliant concise summary. Thank you.

@ssd - the SG including the Greens. And many organisations who have been influenced by Stonewall and similar.

Totally shit, @Remoteso. And he's on a practical science degree. His three attendances are for labs.

I would imagine people who are starting on a history/business/maths degree or similar won't be in at all.

If I were a parent who'd shelled out £££ on accommodation I would be more than a little cross. DS struggles with new things, he's socially awkward and doesn't do well with Zoom, he's better face to face. Not an option.

Thanks, Nicola.

What does Johnsons government say about it?

Are uni's in England doing face to face now?

@BlameItOnTheBlackStar

JK Rowling Graham Linehan

Struggling to think of any more to be honest. You have to be willing to lose your livelihood essentially, if you want to speak up. Doesn't matter quite so much to JK, but Graham Linehan has lost his income, his career, and his marriage.

Now, if this were really a fair 'both sides' debate, would that be the case? Of course not. It has become utterly forbidden to ask questions, to mention that gender may be fluid but that sex is a fact, to point out that a man who says he is a woman can tweet 'TERFs should die in a grease fire' and suffer no consequences.

Joanna Cherry maybe?

Every now and again I torture myself by reading an ongoing thread on another forum, based around Linehan, allegedly, but filled with such utter bile and contempt for him and "the terfs on mumsnet" it actually makes me feel ill at times. These are people who I'd consider generally well educated, eloquent people, generally left of centre and sharing similar interests to me (hence why I am aware of the forum in the first place - though not a member). The forum is a bit weird, and I get the impression it is rather male dominated and somewhat misogynistic overall, though women do post - and on that particular thread too. I am aghast at the kind of language used, and what they consider to be acceptable "reasonable criticism" for people with an opposing viewpoint - albeit one they consider distasteful. It makes me sad, and to be honest, very worried. I do want to be sure I'm not falling into any kind of "baddie" thinking every now and again by thinking that women DO have a point in standing up for their rights, and its not "just transphobia", akin to "no gays, no blacks, no Irish" . But ironically, that kind of thread makes me totally sure that, no, women (and everyone else, frankly) should be fucking scared!

To be fair, Graham Linehan is not a "name". He's a vaguely successful writer who is known in certain circles but really isn't famous at all.

JK Rowling is a famous person, no doubt. Ricky Gervais has voiced views in support of her. Robert Webb - who isn't as famous as the previous two but is on Strictly, has said similar.

@KingsleyShacklebolt

Also railing at University shite, DS has just been on a zoom induction to be told he is going to be in university THREE TIMES this entire semester.

Fucks sake.

What??? That is ridiculous...

It's DHs first day "back in the office" today, and he's got a full set of induction meetings with his students to enrol them. They need to be seen face to face in order to get "signed in", though they are allowed the meeting on Zoom if they prefer (no one has, yet), but have to pop their head through his door when they're next in to get the formal nod (all uni rules, not DH being stubborn). The uni has said all students have to be on campus, and there's no hybrid option this term (though some lectures are still online, but you have to attend anything else in person with no option to dial in as there was last year). It seems so variable!

@ssd

Are uni's in England doing face to face now?

Technically yes as the restrictions on it ended on the 19th of July. Its still up to the universities but they have been "strongly advised" by even the president of universities to return to face to face teaching and not use it as a cut costing option.

English and Welsh unis don't start for a few weeks yet so will get a more accurate picture then.