Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Scotsnet

Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

Guilt Free Railing 12

999 replies

WouldBeGood · 01/09/2021 15:28

The railing goes on

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
ResilienceWanker · 12/09/2021 21:08

@Scottishskifun

There has to be a benefit of the system though rather than implementing a system. If it was a case that people double vaccinated could not contract covid then to me it makes more sense to introduce vaccination passports. But that's not the aim of them at all and won't make a difference in that regard they are used as a big stick to get people to get vaccinations.

I still prefer using them then going backwards to lockdown but it's a choice between severe personal freedom and giving up medical information. I suppose I'm not too bothered by the later as I do it regularly due to allergies and now long covid.

I also don't get the argument of voting for NS because of historical aspects. I vote depending on the track record for the last few years I honestly can't say that the SNP have done a good job up here just look at drugs deaths, health or education. The tories have the boys club aspect some policies I definitely don't agree with but I can't fault them on trying to prevent mass redundancy or piling money into vaccination research and schemes, long covid clinics etc. I still usually prefer policies put forward by labour or lib dems so tend to vote that way.

Fair enough - if NS said "let me have the vaccine passports, but then I promise we won't go back into lockdown this winter" then fine. But that's not going to happen! So all things considered, even though it's not affecting me or mine at all waaaayyyy past nightclubbing stage , I'm not in favour. More from the discrepancy between proven effectiveness vs certain negative impact angle rather than strictly civil liberties tbh. But i definitely have a lot of sympathy for that view... especially given the current SG hasn't been especially hot on preserving those, set against "keeping you saaaafe" policies (alcohol pricing, hate crime, travel bans, masks, protesting outside holyrood etc etc). Plus I think it's bad to effectively coerce people into a certain course of action that isn't necessarily in their own best interest.

I don't think historical political failure needs to sour a party forever at all. But I don't think the push for independence is really a minor policy or one that can be overlooked, even if the SNP were otherwise a model party. And others obviously feel that way too, but on the "other side" - though I'm sure some people who are ambivalent on independence do vote for them as "better than the tories" which is as good a reason as many I'm sure (given our current crop of rather uninspiring politicians/parties...) . Similarly, the tories (UK wide) have some nasty, illiberal, regressive policies that would stop me voting for them based on their current record... nothing to do with the poll tax or miners! They're quite capable of putting me off them because of their current policies without me having to hold decades of grudge. Grin More than 2 parties are available...they may not win, but they are more representative of my opinions even if they are shite opposition too.

Haudyourwheesht · 12/09/2021 21:15

@ssd

Railing against feckin TRANSMT. Am lying in my nice quiet bed with a cuppa and i can hear it thumping away. Intermittently, like they are practicing how to use equipment. Bloody noisy buggers.

I'm loving it. We drove past yesterday and seeing all the dressed up, made up young people was just lovely. There will be an inevitable spike but it's great to see folk enjoying themselves again.

Scottishskifun · 12/09/2021 21:23

@ResilienceWanker definitely but if you look at all of the SNP election adverts it was all based around what the tories had done and not their own track record probably because its pretty crap!
I probably vote like you tbh and I do believe there is more than 2 parties.
I think I would be more convinced by a independence debate if they could show it wasn't going to cost me she'd loads more in tax, cause economic harm and issues and didn't risk my daily living costs going through the roof with higher food bills (due to majority of supply coming from England) or have severe impacts on my pension. But I've never seen any demonstration on the above just we should be independent arguments.... I mean if you can't at least improve the stuff you've been in charge of for 14 years then sorry but I'm not going to trust you to not cause a disaster so won't vote for it!

ssd · 12/09/2021 21:35

I'd love a more socialist government too. Can't see it happening soon though.

ssd · 12/09/2021 21:36

Can anyone explain more about the trans stuff going on please

mibbelucieachwell · 12/09/2021 23:54

ssd. There's a whole section of the feminist board devoted to threads on gender issues. Take a very deep breath before you dive in though.
Basically there's a lot of money to be made in selling medical treatments to people who wish to transition and rich organisations such as Stonewall which campaign for transgender rights, even at the expense of women's rights have managed to buy influence in political parties and governments. Eg, they donated a lot of money to the Lib Dem's.

The Scottish government and most people in public positions are now frightened of them and the SG is keen to be seen to be seen to be progressive and inclusive. They're going to reform the Gender Recognition Act so that anyone can change their sex on their birth certificate without having lived as someone of the opposite sex or had medical or psychological advice. This will mean that men who claim to be women can access women only spaces such as changing rooms and public toilets and will be patients in female hospital wards etc. Men identifying as women who commit crimes will be recorded as women. Men identifying as women can take part in female sporting events at an unfair advantage.

There have been several cases of sex offenders who have claimed to be transgender in order to access women only spaces. Most men who identify as transgender no longer change their bodies surgically and many don't change their appearance other than to dress in traditionally female clothes.

It's now dangerous to question the transgender activists (TRA's) claims that biological men who identify as women are actually women. Defining a woman as an adult human female is considered to be provocative offensive and There have been huge numbers of attacks on people brave enough to question this: actual violence, death threats, disclosing people's home addresses and work places on social media sites etc. Stonewall provides training in diversity to the NHS and many other workplaces. They say that trans identifying people are incorrectly assigned their gender at birth (by medics) and request the use of terms such as 'chest feeding' 'and 'people who have a cervix' in order to be trans inclusive. Amongst other such terms such as cis' for people who identify as the gender that matches their birth certificate. Cis women are apparently privileged and should give up their boundaries about bodily privacy so that transgender people can be included and not be offended. Women who try to question this are labelled as Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists (terfs)

The SG's recent hate speech bill has transgender people amongst their protected characteristics, along with different ethnicities etc. They refused to include women in their list of protected people. Presumably it's now an offence to hurt the feelings of transgender people but it's fine to be misogynistic. Some TRA's claim that gay women who don't want to sleep with men who identify as women while still having male genitalia are transphobic.

There's been a mahoooosive rise in the number of people identifying as trans or gender fluid recently. There's a huge correlation of girls who identify as trans being autistic and a significant number of men who say they identify as women who have autogynephilia (ie they get off on presenting themselves as women).

While we're still according to NS in the midst of a pandemic, reforming the Gender Recognition Act is one of the first things they're doing. There was a public consultation which they eventually published but they only analysed and referred to responses from groups (which will include Stonewall and Mermaids) and ignored the responses of individuals. So that was a waste of public money.

I feel really sorry for transgender people who transitioned before it was fashionable and just want to quietly get on with their lives. The vocal, nasty bullying TRA's have done them and everybody else a huge disservice.

mibbelucieachwell · 13/09/2021 00:09

Post 2 of 2 BlushGrin

SG guidelines for schools now recommend that school children (including all primary school ages) who present atypically from their gender or who express any doubts about their gender identity should be supported to socially transition at school, without their parents' knowledge if it's thought the parents might not be supportive. Schools must call children by the name chosen by the child and refer to them as their chosen gender if the child wants this and the school doesn't need to tell their parents. IMO this is in breach of safeguarding principles.

LizzieMacQueen · 13/09/2021 07:00

@mibbelucieachwell

That is an excellent summary. I wish we could pin this to the front page of Mumsnet.

WouldBeGood · 13/09/2021 07:08

I would just add that 95% of those saying they are women retain their full male genitalia. Some also grow breasts through hormone treatment or surgery. And are turned on by having them.

To self id in the proposals there is no need to make any physical changes whatsoever, nor to change clothing nor anything else.

OP posts:
mapleleavesreturn · 13/09/2021 07:50

I've never understood why Scotland doesn't have a more socialist govt either - independence is a sideshow that will increase taxes for no extra benefit. We can already have more income and wealth redistribution - and taxes are a small amount higher here but nothing like we'd need for total self funding.

The need to build as broad a coalition as possible for the indy dream is directly stopping more socialist policies being enacted imho, as it would be 'courageous'.

mapleleavesreturn · 13/09/2021 07:52

My main objections to indy were economic, now though there are distinct areas over covid, education and parents' rights that I'd be politically concerned about iScotland, there's just so much more eagerness to exact poorly thought out authoritarian legislation here.

BlameItOnTheBlackStar · 13/09/2021 08:06

Bloody hell @mibbelucieachwell 🙌🙌🙌

Excellent summary.

Just a couple of examples of what we're talking about:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/amp/

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/courts/2125153/breaking-dundee-teenager-denan-anderson-walks-free-from-court-after-baby-rape-video-conviction/

Both men claiming they are women. And the SG wants to make it easier for men to waltz into women's spaces. Which used to exist for the reason that we needed protection from dangerous men. But presumably that's old news and everything is fine!

WouldBeGood · 13/09/2021 08:06

The mind boggles

OP posts:
ResilienceWanker · 13/09/2021 08:51

@mibbelucieachwell

ssd. There's a whole section of the feminist board devoted to threads on gender issues. Take a very deep breath before you dive in though. Basically there's a lot of money to be made in selling medical treatments to people who wish to transition and rich organisations such as Stonewall which campaign for transgender rights, even at the expense of women's rights have managed to buy influence in political parties and governments. Eg, they donated a lot of money to the Lib Dem's.

The Scottish government and most people in public positions are now frightened of them and the SG is keen to be seen to be seen to be progressive and inclusive. They're going to reform the Gender Recognition Act so that anyone can change their sex on their birth certificate without having lived as someone of the opposite sex or had medical or psychological advice. This will mean that men who claim to be women can access women only spaces such as changing rooms and public toilets and will be patients in female hospital wards etc. Men identifying as women who commit crimes will be recorded as women. Men identifying as women can take part in female sporting events at an unfair advantage.

There have been several cases of sex offenders who have claimed to be transgender in order to access women only spaces. Most men who identify as transgender no longer change their bodies surgically and many don't change their appearance other than to dress in traditionally female clothes.

It's now dangerous to question the transgender activists (TRA's) claims that biological men who identify as women are actually women. Defining a woman as an adult human female is considered to be provocative offensive and There have been huge numbers of attacks on people brave enough to question this: actual violence, death threats, disclosing people's home addresses and work places on social media sites etc. Stonewall provides training in diversity to the NHS and many other workplaces. They say that trans identifying people are incorrectly assigned their gender at birth (by medics) and request the use of terms such as 'chest feeding' 'and 'people who have a cervix' in order to be trans inclusive. Amongst other such terms such as cis' for people who identify as the gender that matches their birth certificate. Cis women are apparently privileged and should give up their boundaries about bodily privacy so that transgender people can be included and not be offended. Women who try to question this are labelled as Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists (terfs)

The SG's recent hate speech bill has transgender people amongst their protected characteristics, along with different ethnicities etc. They refused to include women in their list of protected people. Presumably it's now an offence to hurt the feelings of transgender people but it's fine to be misogynistic. Some TRA's claim that gay women who don't want to sleep with men who identify as women while still having male genitalia are transphobic.

There's been a mahoooosive rise in the number of people identifying as trans or gender fluid recently. There's a huge correlation of girls who identify as trans being autistic and a significant number of men who say they identify as women who have autogynephilia (ie they get off on presenting themselves as women).

While we're still according to NS in the midst of a pandemic, reforming the Gender Recognition Act is one of the first things they're doing. There was a public consultation which they eventually published but they only analysed and referred to responses from groups (which will include Stonewall and Mermaids) and ignored the responses of individuals. So that was a waste of public money.

I feel really sorry for transgender people who transitioned before it was fashionable and just want to quietly get on with their lives. The vocal, nasty bullying TRA's have done them and everybody else a huge disservice.

Excellent post! Thanks so much for taking the time to write that. It's really helpful. Smile

I have heard people say though that the GRC itself isn't really that important (yes, it's the way you legally "change your sex", but in day to day life you don't need one to be able to self identify as whatever gender you want). It's only useful when you need to show your birth cert to get eg married (so a TM marrying a woman would be recorded as an opposite sex marriage rather than a same sex one, for example) or have your sex recorded on your death cert. Everything else is protected through the Equality Act - someone "claiming" the protected characteristic of gender reassignment doesn't have to have seen a doctor or taken any hormones or even "present as the opposite sex" (whatever that means) - but just be "on a journey". Or for sports, protected through the rules of the relevant sporting body. So even things like changing your passport or being recorded as having committed crime/ going to prison or accessing women's crisis centres etc is currently done on the basis of self ID of your gender, based on the Equality Act.

I'm not saying I agree with that at all, but I assume the reason NS is saying "women's concerns aren't valid" is that the GRA reform is JUST changing how people can go about getting a GRC. So they won't have to present their case to a panel proving how they have "lived" as their chosen gender for 2(?) years, and have a medical diagnosis of "gender dysphoria" (feeling like you're in the wrong body, I assume). But instead they need to sign something to say they've lived for 3 months with eg different pronouns and intend to live as such for the rest of their life, and don't need to have seen a doctor. I can see that could cause some malicious/ not good faith "applications" - but in practice, those people would find a way to abuse women/ access their spaces anyway with the protection of the Equality Act, without having a new birth certificate.

I'm not trying to stoke any ire - I've said before I'm very conflicted on this and totally agree there is conflict with women's rights which shouldn't be pared down at all and can and should definitely be protested. But if anything it seems like it's the Equality Act and not the GRA that is at fault (though I appreciate the 2 are interlinked). I read this article written by a TRA which is obviously rather scathing - but assuming what they say is factually true (which I have no reason to doubt from the cursory reading around the Acts and guidance I've done) I assume this is the kind of reasoning NS is using. Am totally prepared to be told this article is wrong, though, if I've got the wrong end of the stick!

ResilienceWanker · 13/09/2021 09:03

@mapleleavesreturn

My main objections to indy were economic, now though there are distinct areas over covid, education and parents' rights that I'd be politically concerned about iScotland, there's just so much more eagerness to exact poorly thought out authoritarian legislation here.
I agree! My opposition to independence, I confess is more "heart over head" (which seems rash to admit - though is apparently perfectly fine if that's why you support independence) but it is helpful to me that the economic etc facts also support that! There is always the counter-argument that if we were independent the SNP would no longer be needed and we could vote for whatever political ideology we want, in the interests of scotland, but I've always doubted that line of thinking. They wouldn't magically transform into a different party on day 1 of independence and the idea of letting the SNP loose with an entire economy (let alone the divorce deal with rUK Shock) is pretty horrifying to me tbh given their current priorities and track record. No, they may not be permanent, but there's a hell of a lot of damage they can do before someone competent takes over, that we will all have to live through.
BlameItOnTheBlackStar · 13/09/2021 09:04

Combine that with the hate crime bill though, and you could find yourself in a situation where:

  • despite past sexual trauma, your request to have a smear performed by a woman is considered hate speech, and a man who says he is a woman walks into the room anyway
  • you escape domestic abuse only for the shelter you land in to have men in it, which is terrifying for you and your children, but saying anything could get you arrested for hate speech
  • you wind up in prison and your cell mate is a male sexual offender. Protest and you're a bigot
  • your daughter is told she has to change elsewhere if she feels uncomfortable about the boy who says he's a girl in her changing room at school
  • your daughter doesn't want to go on overnight trips with school/guides etc as there will be a boy in her room and she's uncomfortable with that, but saying so means she's a bigot
ResilienceWanker · 13/09/2021 09:25

Exactly. It is a horrible situation for women - especially where they are the vulnerable ones - being made to feel more vulnerable/ unsafe at the expense of the "feelings" of a trans person. But I don't think it's the GRA which is the issue here. Especially for the ones involving trans children, as you can't currently get a GRC til you're 18 anyway (though I know it is proposed that changes to 16).

As I understand, though, the reason a TW can claim to be a woman HCP or prisoner or anything is because they say they are protected on the grounds of gender reassignment, and the EA protects discrimination against them on those grounds (I. E. treating them less favourably than someone who didn't have the protected characteristic). And presumably the hate crime bill works on the same principles of self id - not relying on the trans person having a GRC.

I'm confused by this I confess, as I thought the EA had exemptions, so eg women could request a female HCP and a TW (even with a GRC) wouldn't count. And in any case, you wouldn't be treating the trans person less favourably by preventing them seeing any particular patient. If a man wasn't claiming the protected characteristic of gender reassignment (so was a man rather than a TW) they wouldn't be able to see a female patient requesting a woman. So a TW claiming they should be able to see a woman patient but being refused, isn't being treated any differently as a result of their transgender status. God... All the terminology snd cross-thinking does my head in!

WouldBeGood · 13/09/2021 09:28

The problem @ResilienceWanker is that a female HCP would include anyone saying they are

OP posts:
BlameItOnTheBlackStar · 13/09/2021 09:37

I think that is exactly the problem @ResilienceWanker - nobody knows quite what the law states. Many, many companies and organisations made changes far ahead of any actual legal changes, such that it's now generally accepted that men can be in changing rooms in shops, in gym changing rooms, can be head of a rape crisis centre for fuck's sake, and be extremely belligerent about women who might need to access the centre but who also hold GC views.

And the HCB has, in Scotland, made protesting any of this very dangerous. See, Marion Miller.

ResilienceWanker · 13/09/2021 09:38

Well, yes. I've been telling my bank I'm a millionaire, but they still won't give me the money to buy that mansion.

KingsleyShacklebolt · 13/09/2021 09:48

@WouldBeGood

The problem *@ResilienceWanker* is that a female HCP would include anyone saying they are
That's it in a nutshell. You would still be within your rights to request a woman to do your smear or provide personal care in hospital.

The issue is the definition of "woman". According to the Scottish government, "woman" means anyone who says they are a woman. Whether or not they have had surgery, however they dress, whatever they call themselves. And saying that actually you're not comfortable with a fully intact male, who calls themselves a "lesbian" and is therefore attracted to women, providing you with intimate care makes you a horrid transphobe.

mibbelucieachwell · 13/09/2021 09:52

Thanks for that resilience. But it's the principle of changing a factual, legal historical document apart from anything else. Why not have a category called 'identifying as trans' which would allow for dignified, respectful treatment of trans identifying people? I see what you mean though that continued protection of women only spaces does make NS' comment that women's concern are not valid seem slightly less inflammatory.

For this piece of legislation to be a priority of the government concerns me about their judgment. The SG (like many other governments) has been very unsupportive of people who have been harassed and threatened by bullying TRA's. Their uncritical use of groups that claim that some people are incorrectly assigned a sex/gender at birth is deeply suspect IMO.

Where's the discussion about why there has been a more than 4,000% increase in females identifying as males? Or the huge increase in males identifying as females? Sorry I can't remember the stat for that.

Part of their campaign for independence was that Scotland would become fairer and more progressive (than the UK). Presumably this is one way of demonstrating how progressive they are? Uk govt has shelved its reform of the GRA.

I wonder what Jason Leitch, a practicing evangelical Christian thinks about this.

Kaye Adams on Radio Scot now discussing vaccine passports and saying that more people in Scotland are dieing of alcohol abuse than covid.

Scottishskifun · 13/09/2021 09:53

My big issue with it is the self identification time without medical approval and the impact that has on vulnerable women such as in prison (which studies have shown an alarming high percentage have been abused in the past), domestic violence refuges and also things like changing rooms or breastfeeding spaces which have the potential to be misused.

I also strongly object to the primary school aspects and the potential to be reported if as a parent you challenge it! Just this morning DS told me that he's being a dog today!

I would always support my child regardless but primary school is way way too young. I personally think that no child under 18 should receive hormone treatment it's too young and there has been cases where this has caused lasting damage. But this view apparently makes me transphobic! Which is something I strongly disagree with.

ssd · 13/09/2021 09:54

Thanks everyone for explaining it so well, although I'm now more confused than ever. Its the acronyms that confuse me as well as the actual content of it all.
One thing that does pop out to me....has their been a case where a woman has ID'd as a man in order to get somewhere they shouldn't, or is it all men saying they are now women to get into situations where usually its only women there? Im just curious.

ResilienceWanker · 13/09/2021 09:59

@BlameItOnTheBlackStar

I think that is exactly the problem *@ResilienceWanker* - nobody knows quite what the law states. Many, many companies and organisations made changes far ahead of any actual legal changes, such that it's now generally accepted that men can be in changing rooms in shops, in gym changing rooms, can be head of a rape crisis centre for fuck's sake, and be extremely belligerent about women who might need to access the centre but who also hold GC views.

And the HCB has, in Scotland, made protesting any of this very dangerous. See, Marion Miller.

Yes... It is confusing, particularly as somehow it's become generally accepted in policy terms etc that TWAW/ TMAM so as soon as you say something is a women only space/ service (as you are allowed to under eg the EA), then that includes TW. It just makes everything meaningless.

I understand it must be difficult and traumatic for trans people to know where they "fit in". If they aren't allowed to use things for their "preferred" gender because there is an exemption under the EA, but don't feel safe or dignified in the services for their actual sex (or even those services just don't really exist). And if they WERE applying for a GRC it would be difficult to prove you'd "lived as a woman" if you weren't allowed in any women's spaces at all! I can totally understand why they may get annoyed at "women trying to stop them being their true selves" - but as the examples show, you can't blame women for trying to keep TW and women separate (physically and in law). It's a giant mess. I kind of think "cubicles for all" may solve some problems, but not eg the belligerent "trauma reframing" TW taking jobs specifically reserved for women just because they can. Of course that's not the majority, but it does bring the conflict and issues inherent to light.