Guilt Free Railing 12

[WouldBeGood]

The railing goes on

I'm disabled and vaccinated but I don't agree with vaccination passports. I know from experience that if you have an invisible disability, you won't get any understanding or support. Bouncers in nightclubs will not believe any exemption. There's going to be a lot of discrimination happening.

@listentomydeclaration I've seen that first-hand. A friend has a prosthetic leg and years ago bouncers at a nightclub humiliated her and accused her of being drunk due to her gait.

Personally I'm vanishingly unlikely to want to go to a nightclub or many large events due to my own condition, but I don't think it's going stop at just those restrictions somehow.

I'm now in a miserable flair due to the absolute stress of this, so cheers for that ScotGov, really appreciated.

You situation is awful @MaxNormal and demonstrates one of the many problems I have with coercing people to have vaccines. People tend to accept that there is a theoretical group of people who can't have vaccines for medical reasons and tend to be 'OK' with these people being exempt, but I think in reality it's not at all easy to define who these people are. It presupposes that there is a clear cut distinction between people who are fine with vaccines and those who absolutely can't have them, but my instinct (and experience) would be that there is probably more of a spectrum - some people are absolutely fine and barely notice, others get maybe flu like symptoms for a few days, others might have more severe symptoms that might last weeks and/or need hospitalisation, all the way up to people who get anaphylaxis and die from it or are permanently disabled. The people in the middle, who don't obviously fall into the 'might die' category, but for whom the vaccine could well be worse than COVID (particularly if they are young) are at risk of being branded 'anti-vaxxers' and being barred from sections of society right now. Of course, this also supposes everyone knows in advance how they will react to a vaccine, and obviously everyone starts off low risk until the first time they have a problem (and have to hope it's not a very serious one).

This topic is really nowhere near as simple as it's being portrayed.

I have a 17 year old who has spent ages researching the vaccine - agrees with older people getting it especially anyone with underlying health conditions, obesity etc…but is adamant that he won’t have it. He’s been on reputable sites researching. We’ve had some debates about it and I must admit that I am coming round to his way of thinking, for his age group.

2 weeks ago he tested positive and gave it to his Dad (double vaccinated). DS said it felt like a mild head cold with an added layer of fatigue and loss of smell and taste. His DF had it worse, describing it as really bad flu and was in bed for 7 days. They’re both out the other side now. DS even more adamant he’s not getting the vaccine as he ‘now has antibodies’.

This morning I said, you’re going to be 18 soon and unless you get vaccinated you’ll not be allowed into gigs, nightclubs or big events now. He’s really upset by this and says he won’t get vaccinated just to get into clubs and was pretty disgusted that it’s being made mandatory.

I really worry about him. His life is going to be shit. And what happens when he gets to university - will they insist on vaccines? I’m not sure he’s going to be able to go about his life unless he gets vaccinated.I guess he’s just got be prepared for staying in the UK, never travelling abroad, or going out!

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us that's a very good summary.

In my case it's also just not practical - DH is self employed works away and if I relapse badly I can't be alone. He was put through hell with the stress of trying to manage the last episode and caring for me while somehow keeping a roof over our heads. How could anyone expect me to contemplate putting us through that again?

But as you say people think it's clear-cut - you're either somehow officially "exempt" or you're an anti-vaxxer. The rhetoric and othering feels quite deliberately created and is disturbing.

ScoldsBridling I am so sorry for your son. I feel absolutely awful for younger people for whom going out with friends is a really big deal and a huge formative experience at that life stage. Plus as you say the worry about uni. It's cruel.

@ScoldsBridling I agree with your son absolutely. If I were a teenager (particularly a younger one) I wouldn't be getting vaccinated for COVID given what we know now about the risks outweighing the benefits, and it is indeed absolutely pointless if you have had the disease. This determination to airbrush natural immunity from the picture entirely is beyond bizarre, and I'm sure in other countries you had to show either vaccination status or evidence of infection in the last 6 months in recognition of the fact that is perfectly possible (and indeed normal) to recover from illness naturally even if that protection does wane (also completely normal). Which raises another issue with the vaccine passport idea I suppose - quite apart from legislating that immunity can only come from a pharmaceutical intervention, it apparently doesn't take account of data showing vaccine effectiveness wearing off (and completely ignores the reduced breadth of immunity with vaccines making people more susceptible to new variants). People vaccinated early on will, in all likelihood, have less immunity than people who have recently recovered, yet the former can live life to the max but the latter are more restricted. It's not only inequitable, it's scientific nonsense. Just one more example of poorly thought through legislation being rushed through in an effort to be seen to be doing something in this dystopian nightmare that is the SNP's Scotland.

How willingly a lot of people have given up basic human rights over Covid? Never in my life have I known such infringement of state in my personal affairs ... earlier this year illegal to see family/ travel out of my local area, so called confidential health information required to be shared to travel and access events, requirement to test twice weekly just in case I have an illness, requirement to be 'tracked' to access basic services (library) ....
I really really really really don't get why more people aren't concerned, and that's the bit that makes me utterly depressed.

I have a 17 year old who has spent ages researching the vaccine - agrees with older people getting it especially anyone with underlying health conditions, obesity etc…but is adamant that he won’t have it. He’s been on reputable sites researching. We’ve had some debates about it and I must admit that I am coming round to his way of thinking, for his age group.

I'm a bit like this myself. I remember joining U4T way back - more out of frustration that my 70 year old grandparent was back at the bingo every week with her friends while my children had still not set foot in a school (and if I remember correctly the play parks were still locked in chains).

When the 'anti-vax' (and anti-mask) sentiment became more and more clear I specifically remember posting a comment asking what the hell was going on and surely the point of the group was put pressure on government to make children's safe (as possible) return to school the priority.

Then two close relatives - smart, logical, professional people - voiced concerns and it became clear there are indeed some arguments with infinitely more validity than 'microchips'.

And I don't think the science on masks, or their implementation, is as settled or as straightforward as some would like to believe.

Like everything there is nuance in all of this that gets overlooked when something becomes right VS left or individual VS collective.

But the passport thing is wrong on so many levels. I actually started a thread in AIBU because I feel like I am living on another planet. Genuinely. Should have just come here

@ScoldsBridling I'm a uni student and although constant emails about getting the vaccine it isn't compulsory.

Me being me decided to tinker with the current proof of vaccination and was able to edit it pretty similar. The QR code was a bit trickier but can be done so I imagine fakes will be rife throughout universities. Even when they bring out the app (let's face it their use of tech is pretty shit) there will be people who can edit it to say whatever. I also know someone that's travelled 4 times this summer with the same day 2 test code 🤦‍♀️

As someone who has had one dose but past the clubbing stage I would not be encouraging any young female of childbearing age to get it. The impact on my cycle has been nothing short of a disaster. I've had my kids so it's mostly fine (other than the urge to commit murder with six weeks of PMT) but these are very real concerns.

I raged hearing herself on the radio saying would you not feel safer in a nightclub knowing everyone vaccinated ... eh No? If we must go down that route then a negative test but mostly I don't give a fuck 🤦‍♀️

This has got to be the tipping point surely?

Oddly enough my cycle went a bit weird after my second dose @IsurviveonCoffeeandWinein2021. Some Drs are at least acknowledging that it's a side effect now (rather than just 'stress' as we were told earlier on) but it is still being brushed off with a 'meh' in most cases rather than properly investigated before they double down on the media campaign to convince young women it's all fine.

"I raged hearing herself on the radio saying would you not feel safer in a nightclub knowing everyone vaccinated ... eh No? If we must go down that route then a negative test but mostly I don't give a fuck"

I really do wonder what kind of bubble Sturgeon lives in if she believes that a) most clubbers are worried about COVID, b) people haven't heard the news that vaccines wear off and c) there isn't going to be a 'trade' in fake passports and/or scores of tech-savvy youngsters forging their own. It's not like restricting this one small section of society will have a huge impact on overall spread anyway. Completely unscientific, pointless, nonsense, that will probably be counterproductive anyway because you tend to lose the faith of the people when you apply heavy pressure to get them to comply with a measure they were a little unsure about to start with.

In retrospect I probably would have encouraged my young adult DC to consider it more carefully tbh. DS2 has had a reaction both doses, first was heart palpitations and panic like symptoms, 2nd was more the 1-2 day fluey like stuff. The passports are a horrible divisive idea. What next? Need evidence of a flu jab or MMR or whatever to be able to access services? It's a slippery slope.

Maybe folk going to nightclubs or dating should have a passport confirming they don't have an STD?
Or need a verruca passport for the swimming pool.

I know I shouldn't joke, but it's ridiculous.

How long before some cleaver lawyer decides to question vaccine passports (and make a name for themselves)?

It's difficult but then cycle implications are small and rare I had zero cycle issues from the vaccination but did have mental ones from having covid.

Out of friends vaccinated 1 had a month of slightly short time out of 30 that's low and now 6 are expecting no issues. The risks of covid especially delta are actually far far worse especially in pregnancy. Latest numbers are 2/10 pregnant women who go to hospital with covid end up in ICU.

I found out the hard way that pregnancy lowers your immune system, to avoid your body attacking the baby.

They’re apparently making the forgery of vaccination certificates a criminal offence

Oh great just what's needed, more ways to waste police time.

My dh was ill for 3 weeks after the first jab, in bed in terrible pain, for 6 months of protection. Now it's better than getting covid for him, but would I risk the same for the kids? No.

@mapleleavesreturn the just 6 mths protection definitely makes me question why we would risk vaccinating children and to an extent young adults.

The vaccine was definitely sold to us as the way out but now it's not the way out we thought it was.

Absolutely the facts on the ground have changed and as usual, the strategy is lagging.

It's not like restricting this one small section of society will have a huge impact on overall spread anyway. Completely unscientific, pointless, nonsense, that will probably be counterproductive anyway because you tend to lose the faith of the people when you apply heavy pressure to get them to comply with a measure they were a little unsure about to start with.

This is the part that makes me hate myself for turning into a conspiracy theorist but it's the lack of difference it will make + extremely narrow target which makes me even more suspicious.

A large number of people will not care because they are double jabbed.

A large number of people will not care because they don't use nightclubs (when they decide what that is).

A large number of people will not care because it's only this vaccine, and it's only this pandemic, and it's only this completely non-essential thing that everyone can live with out.

But then another variant comes along....

@Revertion

It's not like restricting this one small section of society will have a huge impact on overall spread anyway. Completely unscientific, pointless, nonsense, that will probably be counterproductive anyway because you tend to lose the faith of the people when you apply heavy pressure to get them to comply with a measure they were a little unsure about to start with.

This is the part that makes me hate myself for turning into a conspiracy theorist but it's the lack of difference it will make + extremely narrow target which makes me even more suspicious.

A large number of people will not care because they are double jabbed.

A large number of people will not care because they don't use nightclubs (when they decide what that is).

A large number of people will not care because it's only this vaccine, and it's only this pandemic, and it's only this completely non-essential thing that everyone can live with out.

But then another variant comes along....

I agree with you.

I have never bought into conspiracy theories but I am starting to wonder what this is all about. It doesn't seem to be about covid.

I looked to get tickets for Scotland's next home game and asked questions about whether covid passports would be needed. This was on Tuesday night. So many mixed answers.

Do we really think turnstile staff will pay that much attention to them when they have a massive queue waiting to get in? Had friends at the game on Tuesday and they all complained about how long it took to get in. And that was without checking covid vaccine status.

[quote Lockdownbear]@mapleleavesreturn the just 6 mths protection definitely makes me question why we would risk vaccinating children and to an extent young adults.

The vaccine was definitely sold to us as the way out but now it's not the way out we thought it was.[/quote]
And also makes vaccine passports pointless.

I had my second vaccine in may. So can get a covid passport but by christmas the protection will be lessening. Yet can then attend any big event without a second thought.

@WouldBeGood

They’re apparently making the forgery of vaccination certificates a criminal offence

It just seems pointless.

People will get fake ones if they really want to, just like they can get fake id now.

It's all well and good making it a criminal offence but who is going to catch them? You struggle to get the police to turn up to a break in.

Just all seems like lip service

Exactly - Margaret Ferrier was one of the few people who ever faced a police investigation about all the other covid rules I can't see anyone busting a gut over pieces of paper so you'll have to be caught faking in a very public manner and likely be high profile for it to matter.

Typical isn't it - the crapper the solution, the more draconian the threat.

This isn't about making nightclubs, football matches etc safer.
It's about trying to increase the vaccine uptake in certain age groups by FOMO.
But it's misplaced and will probably get dropped when they find it makes little difference because BY FAR the biggest case numbers are in the under 19s