They didn’t learn from the named persons fiasco

[Mango1982]

twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1425875063149051906?s=20

🤷‍♀️😳

To think teachers maybe changing your child’s name covertly and keeping the name change a secret from parents

They didn’t learn form the named Persons over reach

37forfucksakenett

That's a disingenuous comparison as you well know. Transwomen are as at risk from men as we are in those situations. Maybe even more so.

Nothing disingenuous about it. It could be said that all men are at risk from other men. In fact given UK murder statistics trans identifying males are a safer demographic than many other groups, including women.

Deliberately inauthentic answers I suppose is the concern. That would always be a concern in gathering information in that way from such a small pool.

I'm not suggesting it's anyone's place to assess the authenticity of someone's gender but I am suggesting, as the data gatherers acknowledged, that some participants might be deliberately disingenuous.

I don't see how I'm wrong? There is still no GRC or any objective oversight. And you're literally telling the kids they've changed their sex when at most they are changing their gender presentation (something which of course I'd have no issue with).

It's funny isn't it how allowing a trans person to live, allowing them to determine where they are most comfortable , where they feel safest automatically removes that right for women

But women are bigots for not accepting transwomen as women , whereas transwomen are big bigots for refusing to accept the nature of sex and it's impact on women

I'm not suggesting it's anyone's place to assess the authenticity of someone's gender but I am suggesting, as the data gatherers acknowledged, that some participants might be deliberately disingenuous.

So are you suggesting that some men might deliberately pretend to be women to get preferment in prison? Would the same men, in the case of the GRA being reformed use self if as a way to serve their sentence in female prisons?

Self Id not if

@Grellbunt

I don't see how I'm wrong? There is still no GRC or any objective oversight. And you're literally telling the kids they've changed their sex when at most they are changing their gender presentation (something which of course I'd have no issue with).

Again none of what you have said relating to schools is correct. In fact your earlier posts were so incorrect that they were offensive to all professionals involved in school. Instead of admitting that you haven't read the document and that don't have a clue what's happening in schools you keep attempting to perpetuate inaccuracies to generate more moral panic. 🤷🏻‍♀️

You don't believe that women can tell someone's sex, but you are asking us to believe that you can tell an "innocent" transwoman from all other males. Even in a group of strangers. I sense an inconsistency there. If you can tell a "safe" man apart from men in general then you must be extremely fortunate.

You are purposely lying. I put up a photo of the procedure which schools must follow earlier in the thread. Yet, here you are again l.
I really can't stand it when women say things on Twitter, Mumsnet etc which they know are not true. Others who aren't educational professionals might not know the process in schools and believe you. Mothers have enough to worry about.

@334bu

*I'm not suggesting it's anyone's place to assess the authenticity of someone's gender but I am suggesting, as the data gatherers acknowledged, that some participants might be deliberately disingenuous.*

So are you suggesting that some men might deliberately pretend to be women to get preferment in prison? Would the same men, in the case of the GRA being reformed use self if as a way to serve their sentence in female prisons?

Yes probably and that is a huge concern. It doesn't mean that I think an ordinary transwoman should have to suffer through a sentence in a male prison though.

What I was actually getting at is that I think prisoners would not have been averse to winding the researchers up. Have you ever worked with prisoners. They're worse than school pupils with that kind of thing.

So are they not using those Guidelines? That would be great.

@Grellbunt

You don't believe that women can tell someone's sex, but you are asking us to believe that you can tell an "innocent" transwoman from all other males. Even in a group of strangers. I sense an inconsistency there. If you can tell a "safe" man apart from men in general then you must be extremely fortunate.

I didn't say that at all. I'm not sure where you are getting that.

@Grellbunt

So are they not using those Guidelines? That would be great.

You haven't read or understood the guidelines.

You said you'd take them at their word that they're genuine trans.

@Grellbunt

You said you'd take them at their word that they're genuine trans.

Yes and what's that got to do with your deliberate misrepresentation of what's happening in schools?

Yes probably and that is a huge concern. It doesn't mean that I think an ordinary transwoman should have to suffer through a sentence in a male prison though.
I agree , but women don't deserve to be put at risk either, so why not make them safe in male prisons ? Or perhaps special units within the male prison estate?

Or do similar in a women's prison which wouldn't be quite so damaging in terms of their dignity and self esteem.

Or do similar in a women's prison which wouldn't be quite so damaging in terms of their dignity and self esteem.

If they are separate from the rest of the prison , what difference does it make if they are in a male or female prison?
Moreover, many of these prisoners will be in for serious offences and because of the pattern of female offending, most female prisons are not high security establishments,.

Well we'll need to agree to disagree. I wouldn't want to be in a man's prison and I can understand why they wouldn't either. Words and labels matter as many are so often quick on these threads to claim. It can't be the case that they are allowed to matter to you but not to others.

There will be many vulnerable groups in male prisons , just as there are in female prisons. However, making female prisons more unsafe for women by allowing some male prisoners access is hardly just either.

But a few posts ago you suggested that separation within a male prison would be safe for transgender people. Why would it not be safe within a women's prison?

And yes there will be many vulnerable male groups within a male prison.

This is a different thing.

If they were totally separate, had no contact with the female prisoners and their crimes didn't necessitate incarceration in a higher security establishment, that could work.
Although, you would also have to endure that there were enough male prison officers as it would not be right to expect female prison officers to be obliged to strip search members of the opposite sex.

ensure not endure. Apologies

Well I would hope that they would be strip searched by specially trained females (who wished to undertake that training ) or maybe even transgender guards. I think everyone deserves some dignity and respect. Including of course the female guards.