Feel depressed about the future

[Hobnob39]

The election results have made me feel really bluuuuerrgh.
I HATED the divisiveness of indyref1, I don't want another referendum. I want our government to do a better day job, but independence is going to be the focus until it happens now isn't it? I don't want independence for the same reasons I didn't want Brexit - I feel we shouldn't be dividing ourselves off into ever smaller parochial wee groups who all think we are somehow better than everyone else. It's enough to make me want to move... my DH is English and he wants to, but I have resisted, but it's getting harder to explain why. The only problem I have though is that I see the results in England and feel they as bad - I don't understand why people who are shafted by the Tory party are the ones voting for them! I just do know where I belong now. It feels to me that Scotland is stuck with SNP and England stuck with Tory, and I'm adrift as I don't feel either represent me. Anyone else?

[quote forfucksakenett]@musingloud

I'll repeat. The sectarian element (nice way of sanitising it btw) are actual real life people who vote, who have neighbours, colleagues and friends and in lots of cases employees.

They aren't trotted out of a cupboard for their orange walks. They are functioning members of our society.

Their numbers are not few either. They are not some weird fringe group of a hundred people who live separately from society.

[/quote]
Yes but the point is WHY they are behaving like. They are behaving like that BECAUSE of their sectarian identity (that is not sanitising it FFS, that is just describing the bloody phenomena). Just like the nationalists are behaving like that BECAUSE of their nationalist identity.

That’s the thing about indyref, it brought out nutters from both sides who used the referendum to excuse their appalling behaviour and it’s logical to assume that they will be back when the next one is announced and it will be hellish again.

I am talking about scottish nationalists being thuggish. And they were. And we all know it.

I don't know it. Some nationalists were and are thuggish. Just as some unionists were and are thuggish.

There's no good or bad side in this argument. It's all just opinion.

Why is it their sectarian identity and not their unionist identity? Because she wasn't wearing a Catholic t shirt she was wearing a yes t shirt.

It's interesting that you choose to ignore the fact that, although they wee clearly thick as fuck and using sectarian slurs, it was their unionist strength of feeling and their upset that she was a yes voter that motivated the abuse.

Well I suspect it’s not a coincidence that the ones outside the polling station weren’t arrested, just moved on repeatedly... and that the police seemed to know their names

Yeah, and I guess its not a coincidence that when I was No campaign representative on polling day that when a Yes campaigner, standing with the Yes representatives, said loudly that all NO voters should be tied in a bag, weighted with a stone and drown in a river, that NONE of the group of yes buddies called him out on this and when I complained about this violent language to them, they just pulled a face at me and turned their backs.

It wasn't the no campaigners in the nice middle class neighbourhood calling for yes voters to be drown, or ignoring such violent language was it? It wasn't a coincidence that the nice middle class yes campaigners thought that language was acceptable.

And also, I hope you've all been complaining about vote share since 1999, although I suspect not.

@forfucksakenett

Why is it their sectarian identity and not their unionist identity? Because she wasn't wearing a Catholic t shirt she was wearing a yes t shirt.

For the simple reason that other unionists weren't behaving like this. It was sectarian unionists. Because of their particular history and culture aligned to the Troubles in Northern Ireland.

The nationalists behaving like this were just Scottish Nationalists. Because that's what nationalism and looking for reasons for difference and division does.

But as with all political debates one side thinks they have the moral high ground.

So in Hartlepool you have left wingers calling people who voted Conservative thick, deluded, selfish, turkeys voting for Christmas, immoral, and comments about "how can you live with yourself for voting Conservative". You never (or very rarely) see the Conservative voters directing such bile at Labour left wingers - they aren't called thick and don't have their morals questioned.

Same in the independence debate - the Yessers took the moral high ground and questioned the morals of people voting to remain with "Tory England". How can you want to be governed by Cameron/May/Johnson. Scotland isn't Tory, anyone voting Tory should hang their heads in shame. Only a couple of days ago someone was posting on Scotsnet that she'd rather "shit in her hands and clap" than vote Tory.

And because we currently have a Conservative government in Westminster, the line taken by a lot of separatists is that if you reject their nationalism, you are by default one of those morally bankrupt, selfish, thick Tories, and that makes you fair game for any bile they throw at you. Because you deserve it.

@RaspberryCoulis

But as with all political debates one side thinks they have the moral high ground.

So in Hartlepool you have left wingers calling people who voted Conservative thick, deluded, selfish, turkeys voting for Christmas, immoral, and comments about "how can you live with yourself for voting Conservative". You never (or very rarely) see the Conservative voters directing such bile at Labour left wingers - they aren't called thick and don't have their morals questioned.

Same in the independence debate - the Yessers took the moral high ground and questioned the morals of people voting to remain with "Tory England". How can you want to be governed by Cameron/May/Johnson. Scotland isn't Tory, anyone voting Tory should hang their heads in shame. Only a couple of days ago someone was posting on Scotsnet that she'd rather "shit in her hands and clap" than vote Tory.

And because we currently have a Conservative government in Westminster, the line taken by a lot of separatists is that if you reject their nationalism, you are by default one of those morally bankrupt, selfish, thick Tories, and that makes you fair game for any bile they throw at you. Because you deserve it.

Yes and they forget that they have to persuade no voters to change their mind. The folks on this thread are doing a really good job, Keep up the good work folks!! 👏

I live in an area where sectarianism is relatively unknown, yet I agree with PP who said that No voters were afraid to admit their preference or to display posters in their windows for fear of reprisals from Yes fanatics. I don't know of a single example here where this happened in reverse.

“Yeah, and I guess its not a coincidence that when I was No campaign representative on polling day that when a Yes campaigner, standing with the Yes representatives, said loudly that all NO voters should be tied in a bag, weighted with a stone and drown in a river, that NONE of the group of yes buddies called him out on this and when I complained about this violent language to them, they just pulled a face at me and turned their backs.”

Well no... I’d be pretty shocked if I’m a group of people only one thought that was ok, people tend to group up with people that agree with them.

But that doesn’t mean all nationalist are like that any more than the orange order and their like represent all no voters.

There was horrible behaviour from sections of both sides of the debate, you can’t pretend it was one sided just because it suits people to think that.

@tabulahrasa

“Yeah, and I guess its not a coincidence that when I was No campaign representative on polling day that when a Yes campaigner, standing with the Yes representatives, said loudly that all NO voters should be tied in a bag, weighted with a stone and drown in a river, that NONE of the group of yes buddies called him out on this and when I complained about this violent language to them, they just pulled a face at me and turned their backs.”

Well no... I’d be pretty shocked if I’m a group of people only one thought that was ok, people tend to group up with people that agree with them.

But that doesn’t mean all nationalist are like that any more than the orange order and their like represent all no voters.

There was horrible behaviour from sections of both sides of the debate, you can’t pretend it was one sided just because it suits people to think that.

But that's EXACTLY what the nationalists do!!!! 🙄They say it was all positive and lovely and any vileness was on the unionist side!

Thugs gonna thug. They'll use any excuse.

The reason being a no voter was difficult was, as a PP said, that Yes was seen as the lefty, socially responsible vote and that No voters were essentially right-wing, uncaring about the disadvantaged, attempting to preserve their own wealth, inward-looking etc. My friends and colleagues were appalled I would vote no and some of those relationships have never really recovered.

The truth in fact for many (like me) is that they see independence as a route to economic crisis which will only make the poor poorer, and will lead to enormous cuts to public services. Massive job losses, particular among highly paid (therefore highly taxed) sectors. No real plan for how the country will fund itself.

I never saw anything during the referendum, or in the time since, that has ever changed my mind about this or even offered a possible solution.

It's not about identity, or Britain, or control, or the tories, Europe or anything else for me. It's numbers. Pure and simple.

“But that's EXACTLY what the nationalists do!!!! 🙄They say it was all positive and lovely and any vileness was on the unionist side!”

Maybe for some people it was though...

I wouldn’t know, I’m not involved in any organisations and didn’t campaign for anyone. From my point of view, the people already caught up in sectarianism on either side btw used it as a way to behave horrendously.

If however you don’t “identify” as anything particularly normally then the chances are they just went about behaving normally whether they preferred yes or no.

“Thugs gonna thug. They'll use any excuse.”

Exactly

the fact that both yes & no supporters on here are saying they saw/ had abuse is exactly what I dread... in my lifetime I've been v lucky and never witnessed such open hostility between people in my country (except possibly when old firm matches were on). On the whole I'd say that kind of behaviour was seen as being socially unacceptable by the vast majority, but come the referendum its fair game... which makes me sad.

This is interesting. If it wasn't for the absolute waste of time and money in terms of civil servants salaries when covid recovery should be the focus I would love to see this happen:

www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-boris-can-beat-the-snp-at-their-own-game

This may be controversial but I don’t see what the Tory party do that’s so bad? Boris’s Covid corruption is dire, but they are not:

presiding over the downfall of our education system and covering up reports about it.

Luring in Yes voters with election bribes which they know are wholly unsustainable if they actually got independence.

Hate crime bill / GRA

Keep a neverendum hanging over the country’s head in such a way that it puts off businesses from investing in Scotland

Hiding £2.7bn Covid support fund.

What have the Tories done that’s as bad as that? Told people in council houses that if they are living in houses that are too big for their needs they’ll have to pay some money or move as these houses are needed for bigger families? Tell people if they want big families then they’ll have to pay for them. Many not on benefits restrict their family sizes as they can’t afford more children. I don’t have a problem with these policies. I’m sure many others don’t either.

There was horrible behaviour from sections of both sides of the debate, you can’t pretend it was one sided just because it suits people to think that

I just don't think it is true to say there was some sort of even handed horribleness on both sides. There simply wasn't. The sectarian example is the only one I have heard of from the Unionist side and that was because they are sectarians and come from a particular cultural context. Yet I experienced and witnessed aggression and threat from Yes voters, as did many others. There was one side afraid to say what they thought in public and another side who were not. There is a reason for that.

No need for worry. They didn't get a majority. In fact, I think SNP work better with the Greens anyway.

GraffitiQueen thanks for the link.

“The sectarian example is the only one I have heard of from the Unionist side and that was because they are sectarians and come from a particular cultural context.”

Except that’s a huge amount of people and covers really large areas. It’s not a few oddballs here and there, it’s thousands and thousands of people.

“There was one side afraid to say what they thought in public and another side who were not.”

And that is not my experience at all.

I don't feel depressed by the result. There was no way the SNP were ever not going to be the largest Party in Holyrood this time round. NS already kicked the can of Indyref down the road for at least 18 months, given not likely to introduce legislation before next Spring. That gives time enough to see how the wind is blowing North and South of the border.

The SNP/Alba supermajority would have been a constitutional and Indy meltdown and an SNP fall from grace would have left no one in charge.

The media attitude is funny though. Nicola is now in exactly the same position as Theresa May who went to the country expecting a resounding majority and ended up with her wings clipped. Will be fascinating to see if an insurgent emerges.

Roll on the Airdrie by-election. Wonder what will happen with the 2 Alba MPs?

Also does anyone know if / when Douglas Ross is standing down as an
MP?

Where I live there was absolutely a rise in sectarian abuse from those who would link themselves to Ulster Unionists rather than being against Scottish Independence.

The debate fired them up and freed them Orange Walks and lodges as they were now discussing politics not being bigots.

I'm sure the pupils wearing the Catholic school uniform who were abused verbally by passing adults didn't feel like it was a political discussion.

Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

There are repulsive bigots on both sides.