Feel depressed about the future

[Hobnob39]

The election results have made me feel really bluuuuerrgh.
I HATED the divisiveness of indyref1, I don't want another referendum. I want our government to do a better day job, but independence is going to be the focus until it happens now isn't it? I don't want independence for the same reasons I didn't want Brexit - I feel we shouldn't be dividing ourselves off into ever smaller parochial wee groups who all think we are somehow better than everyone else. It's enough to make me want to move... my DH is English and he wants to, but I have resisted, but it's getting harder to explain why. The only problem I have though is that I see the results in England and feel they as bad - I don't understand why people who are shafted by the Tory party are the ones voting for them! I just do know where I belong now. It feels to me that Scotland is stuck with SNP and England stuck with Tory, and I'm adrift as I don't feel either represent me. Anyone else?

@SixesAndEights

The nationalist rhetoric appears to be "everyone welcome, unless you're English".

Oh come on, this is nonsense. I'm English, loads of independence supporters are English, there's even a group for English supporters to join. Politicians in the independence supporting parties are English.

Exactly. I've walked Indy walks with the English side of the family (holding their English flags) and they're welcomed.

What is the point of these threads. Someone will post that they are scared of coming to Scotland because of their English accent. They are allowed to feel that way. Then someone posts that they have felt hostility towards people who are not Scottish. A poster says her child has been abused at school.

And then the nationalists pile in to deny it's ever happening.

@Youarecountingonme no, I’m not happy with it, but it’s par for the course here. DS is a pretty chilled boy and I think generally tells them to fuck off- he’d kill me if I went to the school.

He was six or so at the time of the referendum and was very upset by it all then. The kids at primary were talking about it being a war with the English .

He does say he’d like to move to England if there’s another referendum.

It makes me sad. I’m Scottish through and through.

@Dinosauratemydaffodils

That's not othering English people though

No but it's still othering though. Doesn't matter whether its English people living here or a group of people presumed to have voted no last time and Tory this time. Neither are helpful. Would it be more acceptable if she'd (as in the person I quoted from Facebook) had just othered the English? Personally I find the othering of other Scottish people who think differently more concerning but I accept that might just be personal history.

Othering goes on all the time here. I'm not Scottish but dh gets it too and he's half Scottish but because he sounds "posh" everytime he tells people where he was born/grew up he's accused of lying.

No but it's still othering though. Doesn't matter whether its English people living here or a group of people presumed to have voted no last time and Tory this time.

but it'[s okay to 'other' people who voted 'yes' last time, or have a different point of view? Have a read through this thread and see the amount of 'othering' going on. Not to mention pretty horrible stuff said on numerous other threads.

Going back to OP's point about feeling depressed about the future. One of the things depressing me is the recurring theme here about tax payers and non/low tax payers. Talk about indieref being divisive!! How 'othering' is that. I really don't want to live in a society where we divide people in that way with all the resentment that stokes up. And the insinuation behind it all seems to be that all the high tax payers will be going and leaving the poor plebs behind. Someone actually said the high tax payers were 'British' not Scottish - whatever that means

I think it would be ok to visit at the moment,but not at the time of any future referendum, it was toxic last time

@RaspberryCoulis

What is the point of these threads. Someone will post that they are scared of coming to Scotland because of their English accent. They are allowed to feel that way. Then someone posts that they have felt hostility towards people who are not Scottish. A poster says her child has been abused at school.

And then the nationalists pile in to deny it's ever happening.

I don't think anyone's denied these things happen - everyone's agreed there are bam pots of every stripe everywhere. Do you mean what is the point of a thread which has points of view/ experiences other than your own?

I have never truly understood what the problem is. Most English people hold the Scottish in high regard, with the exception of a war that happened literally hundreds and hundreds of years ago what is the problem? There were wars everywhere hundreds and hundreds of years ago. I just don't understand why Scotland feels the way it does towards the British. No country is truly independent, all are interdependent, and we have lived in harmony for so long. Why ruin it all now?

That might have been me saying higher rate taxpayers are more likely to feel British rather than Scottish. It’s true that those living in Scotland that were born in other parts of the uk are more likely to be higher rate tax payers than those born in Scotland. Just like how Scottish born people living in England are more likely to be higher rate tax payers than those born and living in England. The more ‘mobile’ your life is the more you earn.

I don't agree with dividing people on the basis of whether you pay tax,but it is obviously a factor as to what policies you support depending on whether or not you are paying for them

I pay more tax than I would in England,its not a lot and it doesn't bother me too much ,but there would be a limit

I wonder when the SNP are going to publish the true cost of independence, and when they do what will happen to their core support?

@Iwouldratherbesailing

That might have been me saying higher rate taxpayers are more likely to feel British rather than Scottish. It’s true that those living in Scotland that were born in other parts of the uk are more likely to be higher rate tax payers than those born in Scotland. Just like how Scottish born people living in England are more likely to be higher rate tax payers than those born and living in England. The more ‘mobile’ your life is the more you earn.

And you don't think that's 'othering'? A lower tax paying nurse or care worker born in Scotland isn't of much value to the country? Not like these non- Scottish born people who we are lucky to have living here

I didn’t say they were of less value anywhere! I certainly don’t judge the value of workers by what they earn. I was just making the point that that a country needs higher rate tax payers to survive, and higher rate tax payers are more likely to leave an independent Scotland than others.

I certainly agree that care workers ought to earn more!

@Youarecountingonme they will never publish that as then it would be obvious that Scotland will be a poorer country post independence. It would also be difficult to factor in things like the major financial institutions moving from Scotland as a result as I suppose that would be dependent on how the Independence was enacted.

I'm at the stage where I would actually support Scottish independence if it did stack up financially, and by that I don't mean speculating on the price of oil and putting even higher taxes on those on middle incomes. But when I asked about this on a thread a few months ago I was linked to a document published in 2014.

I don't blame Scottish born people for wanting Independence, but I certainly don't see why they expect me to fund it. Fine we'll move to England if it comes to pass. As I say I don't even have a particular issue with paying more tax if it was genuinely going towards helping the poorest and removing social inequality. But that's not what I see happening.

It will never be published.

It was never answered in 2014 and certainly won’t be now that things are much worse financially.

but it'[s okay to 'other' people who voted 'yes' last time, or have a different point of view? Have a read through this thread and see the amount of 'othering' going on. Not to mention pretty horrible stuff said on numerous other threads.

Of course it's not. I hate the tone of the whole debate (it reminds me too much of my family and dh's family "discussing" Northern Ireland) and I usually avoid these threads like the plague because of that.

I don't pay tax (don't work) and dh is a higher rate tax payer. Although he's fine with paying more than he would elsewhere in the UK, there is a limit especially as he's the only earner. Being half Scottish he also describes himself as British.

@Iwouldratherbesailing

I didn’t say they were of less value anywhere! I certainly don’t judge the value of workers by what they earn. I was just making the point that that a country needs higher rate tax payers to survive, and higher rate tax payers are more likely to leave an independent Scotland than others.

I'm sure you don't and that it wasn't your intention. But 'othering' in that way by yourself and numerous other posters on this and other threads does create quite a horribly divisive tone, to me. As I say, not really the kind of society I want to live in.

Is “othering” the new buzzword?

I'm also not sure about your assertion that high tax payers would be more likely to leave - that's just speculation is it not?

What is the point of these threads.

There is none, largely because of confirmation bias.

@happygolurkey

I'm also not sure about your assertion that high tax payers would be more likely to leave - that's just speculation is it not?

I expect some will, and some won't. And for those that leave, industries such as renewables, will increase in scope and require more specialist workers, will attract others.

I find it interesting that some people think there will only be one way traffic when Scotland is independent.

You know it isn't simply 'Scottish born people' who want independence, I hope.

I can honestly say I do not believe the horror stories I am hearing about people in Scotland being so outright nasty and racist towards our English friends, family and neighbours. We all of us know and love many, many people from England who are either visiting, or living here. Hell, there are many, many 'English born' Independence supporters. And you should all know that Scottish Indy supporters are not 'Nationalist' in that way. We know we have a smaller and ageing population and we welcome people coming here to work and live. We are not 'separatists' in the way that Brexiteers are separatists.
I am aware that there are obviously idiots everywhere, and I have no doubt that there has been some comments - but ffs, not to the extent that people should be scared to visit. That really annoyed me. We are famously welcoming, and the scaremongering here is just horrible.

Nobody ever mentions the racism towards Scottish people living and working in England. Sweaty sock, and all that. We just have to deal with it. This 'Scots are racist and nasty to the English' is another facet of the stereotype that we are landed with.

As for 'why are the Scottish so horrible to the English' - grow up. We aren't. And honestly, attitudes on this thread make me wonder if certain people just aren't very self-aware. If people in rUK want to take offence at Scottish people wanting Scotland to be independent, there's not much we can do about that. Don't take it personally.

This is from 2013 but I find it resonates with me: www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/do-scots-really-hate-english/

[quote WouldBeGood]@Youarecountingonme no, I’m not happy with it, but it’s par for the course here. DS is a pretty chilled boy and I think generally tells them to fuck off- he’d kill me if I went to the school.

He was six or so at the time of the referendum and was very upset by it all then. The kids at primary were talking about it being a war with the English .[/quote]
Yes but obviously this a generation being raised. Now really can you, hand on heart, say this is the best place for your son? What would his future be like if this is a generational attitude? What about employment, opportunities if you have nationalism like that. He would have to leave.

Exactly. I've walked Indy walks with the English side of the family (holding their English flags) and they're welcomed.

They held the St George flag at an inde march🤣 The same flag usually raised with pride in the gardens of English Brexit leave voters. Cringe.

Perhaps you could bus up some Morris dancers across the boundary to accompany you on the next inde march?