Feel depressed about the future

[Hobnob39]

The election results have made me feel really bluuuuerrgh.
I HATED the divisiveness of indyref1, I don't want another referendum. I want our government to do a better day job, but independence is going to be the focus until it happens now isn't it? I don't want independence for the same reasons I didn't want Brexit - I feel we shouldn't be dividing ourselves off into ever smaller parochial wee groups who all think we are somehow better than everyone else. It's enough to make me want to move... my DH is English and he wants to, but I have resisted, but it's getting harder to explain why. The only problem I have though is that I see the results in England and feel they as bad - I don't understand why people who are shafted by the Tory party are the ones voting for them! I just do know where I belong now. It feels to me that Scotland is stuck with SNP and England stuck with Tory, and I'm adrift as I don't feel either represent me. Anyone else?

@Hobnob39's last comments reflect mine again. I am not necessarily utterly opposed to independence because from an entirely selfish point of view our personal circumstances will probably not be massively negatively impacted due to the types of jobs we have, etc. My concerns are much more than I prefer a global approach (was horrified by Brexit). BUT this thread is an illustration of why moving country right now is appealing - the thought of spending the next 3-4 years with independence debate popping up in every context just fills me with horror.

I think Scotland can survive as an independent country but there will be a big impact. We benefit disproportionately from the Barnett consequentials because the consequentials recognise the difficulty of delivering services in remote areas and also recognise demographic impact of older populations. Hello Highlands and Islands and a population significantly older than England's...

And when you get to a single issue like Faslane it's the mixed messages that drive me mad. If Scotland doesn't want to have any part in nuclear weapon proliferation then that's fine but
(a) don't claim that money will be available for stuff like health while having the SNP also claim that defence spending will remain at the levels required for NATO
(b) don't suggest that the removal of the largest industrial site in Scotland will have limited economic impact. Areas like West Dunbartonshire and Inverclyde will lose a substantial number of their best paid residents and they are already areas of deprivation with falling populations
(c) don't suggest that Faslane would be an appropriate base for a conventional navy - it defies all logic and then undermines every other statement

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us I think she should be able to get the benefit without having to prove she has been raped. I think it is disgusting to re-traumatise a woman just so that she can keep her children out of poverty. But the only way I can see that you could have it open to rape victims without them having to discuss and evidence their rape would be by abolishing the policy.

@kikisparks The proof was just a self declaration was it not? I don't think women would be forced to undergo medical examination etc. although happy to be corrected if wrong. I appreciate that even that might be difficult for some, but if you accept the principle that it's reasonable to cap child benefits (and I appreciate that you don't) it seems that it is a sensitively handled as it possibly can be. I'm still not sure I'd classify that as 'disgusting' which to me implies something a lot worse, but happy to agree to disagree on that point.

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us having worked with victims of rape, including those who have children as a result, even filling out a declaration could be traumatising. But as I understand it you also have to have spoken to a third party organisation.

fullfact.org/economy/what-rape-clause/

Women’s Aid Scotland and Rape Crisis Scotland refused to collude with this:

womensaid.scot/project/scrap-the-rape-clause-family-cap/

I’m not the only person who thinks this is barbaric and inhumane, it’s quite a widely held view.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/17/data-shows-900-women-in-uk-affected-by-tax-credit-clause

There is also the issue that children of rape may well be born into controlling relationships where the woman has not managed to leave and in that case she would not be eligible, in some cases the children’s benefits are the only money she has access to.

But as you say it is not my main point, just something where I personally feel the Tory government has had another empathy fail.

I don’t vote Tory but one of my colleagues used to vote Tory all the time. He came from a very deprived area and used to get mocked by his neighbours - stairwell of 6 flats, all other flats living off benefits - for going to work.

Independence is going to take so much away from those that need benefits. So much.

I agree with @Y0uCann0tBeSer10us , although there will be any amount of political posturing, it would be very dangerous for SNP to run Indyref2 just now. They may have a pro independence vote based government, but no guarantee that this turns into actual yes votes - and while we're at it next time it should be something other than yes and no.

I certainly don't agree with all Tory policies, but at the minute they're the only credible opposition to SNP and economic impoverishment is of no benefit to anyone, so I will keep on voting for them.

I just hope we get DS through his next 3 years or schooling before it all erupts. I'll also likely lose my financial sector job in the case of Scottish Independence- otherwise why would they go to the bother of retaining a much more costly London centre - thankfully for me another couple of years means I'm within shouting distance of a reasonable pension if I can get something until I retire.

And true to form the anti English vitroil has already begun on FB comments on local papers (I've reported 28 separate posts)

Worst part is when other people challenge them on their stance they say its not racist or hate speech..... Here come years of more of it and people thinking it's acceptable because of the independence debate. 😔 It's a sad state of affairs to live somewhere people don't even think that this kind of language and behaviour is bad.

I'm actually grateful for masks it muffles my English accent!

We are supposed to be coming to Scotland for two weeks in the summer to meet dh's many relatives and and take the children on the steam trains and a holiday, and now we are seriously rethinking our trip, as I am not sure how welcome we will feel. Dh said we should cancel as it is not fair on the children, and we don't want them to feel compromised or unwelcome. We want go somewhere that is friendly with no hostility.

And true to form the anti English vitroil has already begun on FB comments on local papers (I've reported 28 separate posts)

My personal favourite so far is someone who won't be buying from Scottish farmers because they're "Tory bastarding scum"!

So much for not "othering"...

@Youarecountingonme

We are supposed to be coming to Scotland for two weeks in the summer to meet dh's many relatives and and take the children on the steam trains and a holiday, and now we are seriously rethinking our trip, as I am not sure how welcome we will feel. Dh said we should cancel as it is not fair on the children, and we don't want them to feel compromised or unwelcome. We want go somewhere that is friendly with no hostility.

This makes me so sad. I would welcome you and your family (and visitors from anywhere else in the world) with open arms.

The nationalist rhetoric appears to be "everyone welcome, unless you're English". Luckily though @Youarecountingonme these numpties are few and far between and most of us realise that people living south of hte border are exactly the same as we are.

@Youarecountingonme

We are supposed to be coming to Scotland for two weeks in the summer to meet dh's many relatives and and take the children on the steam trains and a holiday, and now we are seriously rethinking our trip, as I am not sure how welcome we will feel. Dh said we should cancel as it is not fair on the children, and we don't want them to feel compromised or unwelcome. We want go somewhere that is friendly with no hostility.

This is somewhat hyperbolic. Scotland's a very friendly country, are people on here really suggesting that folk going for a holiday won't be made to feel welcome. That is ludicrous.

The nationalist rhetoric appears to be "everyone welcome, unless you're English".

Oh come on, this is nonsense. I'm English, loads of independence supporters are English, there's even a group for English supporters to join. Politicians in the independence supporting parties are English.

Our family is anglo-scots (Scottish husband and lots of family north of the border at the time of the last referendum). Last time round we went to rallies and felt passionately that we didn't want Scotland to go.

This time round, you know what, I just don't care as much. I will feel sad and as though my own country is somehow lesser but I simply haven't got the energy to persuade you to stay. I feel exhausted by Brexit and the pandemic and simply want a quieter political background, with the concentration on building up the country and no more quarrels.

What I would insist on though, is a very clear, non-negotiable agreement on what would happen after a vote for independence. No years of wrangling and trying to cut deals. Cards on the table, this is what's on offer, good-bye and all the best if you choose to take it. We can't go through something like Brexit again.

@Youarecountingonme please don't change your holiday plans, people will be very welcoming to holiday makers especially DCs.

I guess that's why it was a surprise at the last Indyref when DH - English and I - Northern Irish started to be othered. As if the considerable taxes we'd paid into the Scottish economy were somehow irrelevant and our right to a vote on a matter which apparently didn't concern us was questioned.

DH suggested that Boris may try to placate by offering more concessions to SG. At this point that's almost the worst of all worlds, last time Indyref lost the vote but here I am paying significantly more taxes than I would in England and can't see what extra social benefits it's actually funding.

yes numpties are few and far between - like the ones who used to think it was hilarious to mimick my Scots accent when i lived in England - (one of my lecturers used to do it every time i spoke, which put me off participating somewhat) and the ones who were sick of 'bloody jocks' coming down here etc..But I'm happy to say they were in a very tiny minority compared to the vast vast majority who were friendly and welcoming.
And Scotland is the same - of course there are numpties here like everywhere. And, as with everything these days the numpties manage to make a big enough noise online to make it seem like they are actually representative. Like the idiot tweeting on George Galloway's feed calling independence supporters vermin.

Actually, most English people I know support independence. Some don't - it doesn't matter - all are welcome.

Good that these FB posts are being reported though as there is absolutely no place for that whatsoever.

I feel exhausted by Brexit and the pandemic and simply want a quieter political background

I completely agree with you. I so wish the EU ref had either not happened or gone the other way. That it would be void because of fraud had it been a binding referendum doesn't help matters.

Then all we'd be dealing with is the pandemic, which is terrible enough without all the political turmoil.

However Brexit pushed a whole load of things across the UK, so it is what it is unfortunately.

@Dinosauratemydaffodils

And true to form the anti English vitroil has already begun on FB comments on local papers (I've reported 28 separate posts)

My personal favourite so far is someone who won't be buying from Scottish farmers because they're "Tory bastarding scum"!

So much for not "othering"...

That's not othering English people though

Talking about political fatigue, on the BBC show on Saturday, they pointed out that between 2014 and 2021 there was only one year where there were no elections, no wonder folk are exhausted.

I hear you scottishskifun. It does seem to be the last remaining nationality it is acceptable to "hate". Though at least the HCB does make it an actual crime, so that's something... though proving it as hate speech rather than banter, good natured joking or whatever could be tricky. I was told on another thread ages ago that anti-English sentiment was understandable, if not acceptable, as the English have oppressed the Scots for centuries. So that's nice.

I'm very fortunate in that I haven't really experienced anything especially negative due to my "Englishness" (Edinburgh, mixing with multicultural people through work etc). But it must be horribly intimidating to be subjected to it routinely, and not being able to complain without being accused of "not taking a joke..." .

I suppose the "othering" helps with one of the main flaws, as I see it, of independence. In that we are very much "one country" and there is much, much more in common between the Scottish and English (and Welsh and Irish) than there is difference in culture, beliefs snd so on. But if English families are placed as "stupid Tory scum who have nothing in common with us" it's much easier to persuade people to ditch them and focus on "our own".

That's not othering English people though

No but it's still othering though. Doesn't matter whether its English people living here or a group of people presumed to have voted no last time and Tory this time. Neither are helpful. Would it be more acceptable if she'd (as in the person I quoted from Facebook) had just othered the English? Personally I find the othering of other Scottish people who think differently more concerning but I accept that might just be personal history.

Othering goes on all the time here. I'm not Scottish but dh gets it too and he's half Scottish but because he sounds "posh" everytime he tells people where he was born/grew up he's accused of lying.

The nationalist rhetoric appears to be "everyone welcome, unless you're English"

That is how I feel, I haven't felt that way before when we went to the West Coast of Scotland eight years ago, and it was really really incredible. One of our favourite trips of all time. The whole atmosphere has turned so toxic, and we are truly exhausted as key workers by the pandemic, by brexit, by the endless politics of everything. We are sick to the back teeth of it, and want more than anything for some peace and quiet.

It is not up to us here in England what Scotland decide to do (I do think the emotional impact will last for decades and it will be far worse than brexit) but I wish it would end one way or another. We can not carry on with this indefinitely. I almost hope for another ref to settle it, because it feels like it is never going to stop. If they decide to stay with NS just keep demanding more and more until she gets the right answer? And if that is the case, why do people still vote for her? And choose to live with this endless stress and uncertainty.

Personally I want to live in a peaceful country, not one with constant division and aggression. I have had enough of it. Really totally fed up. The last ref was in 2014 and it hasn't stopped since.

We have our holiday booked, and I think I will wait and see. I just get the feeling the nationalists would close the border if they could. I don't know they hate us so much!! Bloody hell it is just so unwarranted.

DS is twelve and gets called an English cunt at school. He sounds a bit English as my ex is. It’s par for the course. He’s pretty unbothered, but finds it unpleasant.

Wow that is totally unacceptable. I assume you have spoken to the school? Are you comfortable with your child growing up in such a hostile atmosphere?