Second referendum part 2

[Gighasmokedhalibutisawesome]

Any appetite for a continuance or have I missed the new thread?
There was quite a heated squabble respectful exchange of views so I am sure there is more to be said......

There is one thing I have learned from the Holyrood debate on requesting a section 30 order - I had no idea that so many motions that had been decided by Holyrood had been flatly ignored by the Scottish government. I knew they were some combination of arrogance and incompetence, and that their record was terrible, but I had no idea it went to that level. People really need to be made aware of this, as I'm sure it's not common knowledge.

Pmsl

One thing that is so apparent from all these clips from the Scottish Parliament is that NS absolutely hates being criticised. Her body language, facial expressions - she is completely unable to disguise it.

This is real eye opener to us who aren't in Scotland and in normal circumstances wouldn't watch televised debates from the Scottish Parliament. What we see down here is a rather 'strutting' (can't think of a better word so I hope you know what I mean) supremely confident politician who the whole of Scotland adores and who assuredly represents the will of the 'Scottish People'.

We see her giving her press conferences stood on the podium with the flags and we see her preaching to the adoring masses at SNP conferences.

But to see her, sat there, squirming in her seat as the opposition parties lay into her, is a real eye opener. She hates criticism, absolutely hates it and is the epitome of the phrase 'dish it out but she can't take it'.

It certainly puts a massive dent in her aura of invincibility.

There is one thing I have learned from the Holyrood debate on requesting a section 30 order - I had no idea that so many motions that had been decided by Holyrood had been flatly ignored by the Scottish government. I knew they were some combination of arrogance and incompetence, and that their record was terrible, but I had no idea it went to that level. People really need to be made aware of this, as I'm sure it's not common knowledge.

Now that's something I did know about as other interviewees like Rennie (is it?) and I've heard Ruth Davidson mention it as well .. that if the SNP lose a motion they just ignore it and carry on regardless.
So they lose the vote, but still go ahead and implement the policy.

Unfortunately, in the interviews I've seen the interviewer is always more concerned with Brexit and Theresa May and Scottish Independence ... so they just sort of gloss over it ... don't ask any more questions about it.

Kimmy does that in Korea too.

But you can tell everyone loves him

Sturgeon's been looking uncomfortable during and since her conference speech, I'm wondering whether she's figured out that she's misjudged this gamble. The punches about cracks in the SNP's ability to govern are hitting home. I'm impressed to see that outside of the SNP, Scotland does have quite a bit of political talent - this debate has been a great showcase for that - Dugdale, Rennie, Davidson and others, all competent politicians. I didn't know about the ignoring of their parliament either You

I did.

I often am criticised for calling her a dictator. Usually by people outside of Scotland.

(Usually far left guardian sort that see her as some sort of daaahling)

It doesn't help that people outside of Scotland blow smoke up her arse all the time.

We do have formidable politicians in Scotland. Sturgeon is a dictator, not a politician.

Remember what the supreme Court said about the named person scheme: “The first thing that a totalitarian regime tries to do is to get to the children, to distance them from the subversive, varied influences of their families, and indoctrinate them in their rulers’ view of the world. Within limits, families must be left to bring up their children in their own way.”
They are still merrily implementing it in my council area

Been following this thread with interest.

I've only just read this myself so haven't had time to have a proper think about it, but Gerry Adams (if you glaze past the initial Martin McGuinness praise), is using the threat of IndyRef2 to put forward a case for United Ireland.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/22/martin-mcguinness-republican-united-ireland-sinn-fein

My gut reaction is unease with this. I know this thread is about IndyRef2 etc, but having family who lived through the Troubles, I feel a little bit sick at the thought of Holyrood posturing dragging Ireland back into that sorry state of affairs. As I said, I probably need to re-read and read some more, but I think it's at least interesting/worrying in equal measure.

I'm impressed to see that outside of the SNP, Scotland does have quite a bit of political talent - this debate has been a great showcase for that - Dugdale, Rennie, Davidson and others, all competent politicians

Indeed.

I'm going to hold my hand up here and tell you something. It sounds incredibly petty now .. but I'm being completely honest, even if it does make me look a bit of a dick!

For several years I have had, what could almost be called, an obsession with St. Kilda - the incredible history and the place itself. I can't tell you the hours I've spent reading about it and researching it. As a Welsh speaker, I'm also fascinating by the unique form of Gaelic that was spoken there.

It's not an easy place to visit - limited to just a few months of the year and if you want to stay on the island, special permission is required. But it is somewhere that was always top of my list of places to visit.

After the last referendum and all the shit that stirred up, then the constant refrain of the SN ever since .. I just thought 'fuck it' no way am I going to Scotland - there are plenty of other places I want to visit.

But being part of this discussion with you fabulous Scots, as well as watching and listening and finding out more about what is really going on in Scotland, my trip to St. Kilda is definitely top of the list again.

Cool thanks fontella. St Kilda is amazing

Troubles, I feel a little bit sick at the thought of Holyrood posturing dragging Ireland back into that sorry state of affairs.

Absolutely. There is no oppression here. The only person oppressing Scots is NS herself.

Nobody really has the a petite for more division.

So wonderful ....

I hope to hell she realises what she is doing and I will be devastated if she succeeds in this poisonous posturing. I fear conflict both here and triggering it off in ireland again.

She likes to paint the scottish picture as an oppressed nation. It is nothing of the sort.

There is nothing noble about her cause whatsoever. Pure vanity.

I emailed the Greens this morning - silly me voted for them in the GE - to register objection to their support for Indyref 2. The response I received to my email ensures I will not be voting for them again.....

So what I'm hearing is that in the event of a united Ireland, loyalist unionists would take up arms, and in the event of an independent Scotland, unionists would take up arms? Is that right? What is it about unionists that we are all to do exactly as we're told in case they decide to take up arms?

I'm out of here, there is no debating going on. Fontella, I would recommend St Kilda, it's gorgeous. I wonder you're up for it after reading Gruff's posts about how we are all brainwashed, scary and akin to scientologists but I can confirm trips to Scotland are actually still a joy, particularly to the Western Isles (in my opinion!)

It is a bit of a union-fest isn't it Nyx

I've always wanted to go to Jura as an homage to Orwell, inertia and the desire to go somewhere and drink red wine in the sunshine have held me back so far!

Sturgeon's been looking uncomfortable during and since her conference speech, I'm wondering whether she's figured out that she's misjudged this gamble. The punches about cracks in the SNP's ability to govern are hitting home.

I think you're right. Her face when Ruth Davidson pointed out that support for Independence appeared to be falling after the latest game playing was a picture. I think she knew she had to take this chance because the SNP are past their peak and are likely to lose seats after 2021 (and the Greens will probably lose support too, after the way they've behaved), but I also think she knows it hasn't really worked, no matter how much she tries to sound like she's the reasonable one.

www.commonspace.scot/articles/10606/back-scotland-against-tory-nationalists-london-austrian-author-tells-european

Interesting choice of words

You have to be realistic. You ae the one talking about removing what people have grown up with and become attached to. There is nothing wrong with it as it is (other than the current leadership in scotland.

It is massively unrealistic to expect to dissolve a country without a large majority support without serious conflict, where I believe both sides would be involved and everyone would suffer.

There is nothing peaceful and democratic about the way ns is handling things.