Second referendum part 2

[Gighasmokedhalibutisawesome]

Any appetite for a continuance or have I missed the new thread?
There was quite a heated squabble respectful exchange of views so I am sure there is more to be said......

Calyx, I don't think TM can ignore a S30, but she can argue about the timing of another referendum. I think that's what she has done already.
Why the hurry? It will make no material difference to Scotland s relationship with the EU, but doing it now will make a material difference to the Brexit outcomes (which, like it not, will affect Scotlands prosperity in the short and medium term.

Yes an not just for the 3% that want it.

oops, cross posts re relevance of timings for referendum.

We HAD a referendum and voted no and there is no appetitle for another one according to polls.

Gruffalo I see the articles and am sad that this complete plonker is tainting the SNP with his crap. Him and that Jim Dowson. They are not welcomed by me and my independence supporting friends

Wellthatsit- you say no difference but "Sturgeon wants a referendum to take place between Autumn 2018, when the terms of the UK’s departure are due to be ratified and the Spring 2019, when the UK is due to leave the bloc. She believes by having it before Brexit it would be easier to protect Scotland’s links with the EU than if the country comes out of the bloc along with the rest of the UK." (The National on Friday)

There are now so many of them in the snp even ones with a high profile within them such as IRA supporters and anti english racists that it is hard to take them seriously or not find them repugnant if you in any way identify as english or british I'm afraid.

You've even got Tony Blair now... it is a real rogues gallery.

The SNP complain that all power/wealth devolves to SE England. In the event of Scottish independence it probably won’t be long before Wigtown, Scrabster, Hawick and Kirkwall are complaining that all power/wealth devolves to the central belt - in fact they already do!

Posters have talked about English brexiteers being rascist (do you think that anyone who voted for Brexit in Scotland is also rascist?) The ONS have an interesting map which shows levels of migration within the UK, showing where migrants live.

There are 2 tiny areas of Scotland where immigration is between 15 and 20% - central Glasgow, and obviously Aberdeen, Aberdeen’s numbers being raised by oil industry workers and their families. There are several relatively rural areas of England where migration levels are at a similar level, and most major English cities have immigrant populations well in excess of 20%.

I do wonder how open to immigration somewhere like Nairn or Ullapool or Dumfries would be if there was suddenly an influx of 15% - 20% of migrants. NS is inviting the world to come to Scotland, but Scotland has not seen immigration at the levels England has, so she cannot possible know how the local populations would react.
visual.ons.gov.uk/what-are-migration-levels-like-in-your-area/

There was a very interesting article on Aljazeera America just after the last referendum - I've tried to find it but can't, I'll keep looking. It basically argued that it's all well and good for Scotland to want independence so their own parliament can decide the route that Scotland goes down, but the real power these days lies with the multinationals, the googles and amazons, the fox corporations etc. They dictate to governments.

These are the companies who are behind the zero hours contracts, the awful working conditions, the low pay. In an independent Scotland, we will be so desperate to attract businesses into the country that I can see we won't stand up to the work practices, because if we did, the companies would just tell Scotland to do one - we're not big enough, with a hugely spread out population of 5 million, to have the leverage to force change here.

She believes by having it before Brexit it would be easier to protect Scotland’s links with the EU than if the country comes out of the bloc along with the rest of the UK." (The National on Friday)

She is not silly enough to believe that as she knows scotland is out of the eu full stop. We are part of the uk who voted out and is leaving. She can not stay in. The uk joined with our own uniquely positive characteristics. Scoland would need to join on it's own merits.

She knows she needs to reapply and she knows it makes no difference when the referendum is held that this is the case. She has wibble on it this week so much that I don't know if they will even apply again or not.

She is hoping that even minor wibble in the success of negotiations during bresit can be used a s a propoganda tool to help her on her way to securing her dream (which will be a catastrophe for ordinary scots) and she is making the chances of successful deals with the eu as difficult as possible.

She is acting as a saboteur and that is plain as day to the rest of the uk. It will not bode well for us if we seperate.

She is also hoping that the government will be so focuss ed on brexit negotiations that the snp will have free reign to shout their yessers propoganda without much competition.

She is playing a dirty game imho...

I think, because of the situation with brexit scotland should take 5 or ten years after the end of negotiations with the eu to see if things are working out for them. They will also be able to see if they want to join the eu after the eu have had time to settle after brexit.

This really is last chance salon stuff for sturgeon and it is all about her ego... Nothing to do with what is best for scotland.

I absolutely agree bathsheba about the power of untaxable multinationals - and with corporation tax being cut as the investment carrot the tax base is moving more and more to personal taxation and VAT because that's the only way to protect jobs.

I've not yet seen a decent plan to tackle the power of multi-nationals but it's the right question to my mind, small countries will be in a race to the bottom to cut business taxes to keep jobs here.

Posters have talked about English brexiteers being rascist (do you think that anyone who voted for Brexit in Scotland is also rascist?)

My Dad voted for it and he is appallingly racist - he's always been quite racist, but recently has given totally free vent to it. It might be filters dropping as he gets older (he's almost 80) but he's got much worse in the last year or so.

I think there are a range of motivations for people backing Brexit and racism is one of them. There is also an angle to Scottish Independence as well (in his younger days my Dad would refer to English people in the village as 'white settlers').

I know that multi nationals have raised concerns about the higher tax levels in Scotland v rUK and the impact that will have on attracting skilled workers who pay higher rate tax.

Jobs were leaving Scotland for cheaper locations long before brexit, workers in places like Mumbai are taking on a lot more skilled roles than 10 years ago. unless things like minimum wage, EU work time directive etc. are abolished this will continue whether there's independence or not.

White settlers is a popular slur.

I know many who voted for brexit in england and in scotland.

Most did so because of the layers and layers of beaurocracy, poor representation and also the laws being made outside of the country. Many also did this as they were seeing a rise in euroscepticism right accross europe and wanted to get out before it all came crashing down and took us with it.

One person I know voted out because of "brown ones" she is very old and doesn't like foreign things.obvs that is very wrong. She is scottish.

The independence movement at this stage has a large element of racism towards english people which the snp does nothing to condemn, they have convicted anti english racists IRA supporters high within their ranks. They are your nearest and largest neighbour ally and trading partner.

The snp are continually poking at their ribs, sabotaging negotiations and firing of warings about how they want to leave the uk defenseless (nukes).

The snp's behaviour is literally war talk.

It is madness.

i know that multi nationals have raised concerns about the higher tax levels in Scotland v rUK and the impact that will have on attracting skilled workers who pay higher rate tax.

This will only get far worse in an independent country. We will either loose jobs through high corporate taxation or they will try to appease corporations by lowering it and.placing the burden on jo taxpayer. With such a small population, they could never compete.

And yes higher rate taxpayers(at the new lower threshold) will not see the point in staying.

Wealthy people have much more ability to move around in terms of rights to work in various places and because moving costs are less significant to them.

I voted Brexit and I don't have a racist bone in my body.

I have wanted out of the EU for the best part of 15 years, and long before I ever heard of UKIP, Farage, Boris, Gove or any of them.

I never voted for Brexit because of immigration (although I do believe every country on earth has the right to some degree of control over who crosses their borders).

I loathe the EU institution itself, the way it functions, the cost of it, the layers and layers of bureaucracy, the faux democracy of the so called European Parliament (that has absolutely no powers whatsoever) and the fact that EU legislation comes from an unelected commission, behind closed doors, and I loathe the one size fits all currency that has brought such misery to those impoverished countries trapped inside it.

The EU had needed reform for the past 15 years at least, but it stubbornly refuses to change and its answer to everything is 'more EU', more suppression of dissent and disagreement. Brexit was our only chance to send it a clear message - reform or die - because it will collapse unless it does reform.

I could write a dissertation on all the things I detest about it, but this thread isn't the place. I don't know why others voted Brexit and I won't make any assumptions about their reasons for doing so - but I know why I did, and it has nothing to do with racism or xenophobia.

"small countries will be in a race to the bottom to cut business taxes to keep jobs here." Isn't that Teresa May's plan?

It is not the SNP's plan.

Wasn't there going to be a pilot of a universal basic income somewhere in Scotland? What do people think of that, particularly with what you're saying about conditions for workers being set to get so much worse.

People who vote for Scottish independence are not doing so in order to keep 'white settlers' out of Scotland. Nowhere have I seen that stated or written or even hinted at (except here of course).

I read that Fife and Glasgow councils were thinking about basic income trials, but haven't looked at the details and assume it depends on the outcome of the council elections.

The comments above about getting rid of minimum income and working time rules are deeply depressing.

I'm very interested in the universal base income theory, and have read a lot of articles about it.

I believe we would find there would be an awful lot of unintended consequences if this went ahead - rises in cost of rents etc., and I honestly think it would mean the end of the NHS.

I have heard it directed at me and my family nyx. Quite a few times, but I would describe those it was coming from as radicals.

I read about it too.

For me is screeches communism and anything people do earn will be taxed to fuckery.

I worry about the future of the NHS if the whole 'Brexit tax haven' idea goes ahead.

I do think there are some difficult conversations to be had about funding of the NHS, pensions, care etc - there are increasing burdens, and governments seem unwilling to take long-term decisions on this (mainly I suspect because it comes down to 'pay more tax or lose services').