Second referendum announced!

[Isadora2007]

😳

Will your vote change next time?

Hopefully not Plectrum.
But As a Londoner of 30 years I am absolutely flinching at the TM response today. Heaven forfend that our elected politicians play politics! I am absolutely confident that TM herself would never stoop to "playing politics with the future of our country" .....certainly not showing many signs of decisive activity so far....
She might as well have been holding a fly swat labelled for "minor irritants" and this will only fuel antagonism. A fair few tartan slippers will be thrown at tellies in response, and not just from pro-independents. Anyone else think her response could have been more statesmanlike? I was all "eh, haud on there a wee minute Theresa"

The problem with devo-max is a) it is sort of what the No campaign said would happen if Scotland voted no and b) it is something WM and rUK would have to agree to give Scotland rather than something Scotland would have control over IYSWIM.

No last time, no again. Brexit has not changed the fact that Scotland can't afford to support itself. I am not willing to live in Scotland during another 2 year campaign where my English husband has to put up with verbal abuse. We'll be moving.

Can't - my point is, there doesn't need to be a belief that independence is a better economic option for that to even be considered a viable option because after the last referendum I think we pretty much established how dicey that option would be, and no doubt that played a big part in the no vote succeeding. But it was also on the basis of being part of the EU.

What we, Scotland, are faced with is economic uncertainty/chaos with Brexit, coupled with a Tory government leading those negotiations without any coherent plan or idea what Brexit looks like or will end up like with no clue as to what's going to be sacrificed on the alter of the exit deal, but knowing how little regard most of those Brexit loving tories have for Scotland & its specific interests -v- economic uncertainty via independence. It has so little to do with making a political point re separating from rUK that I'm surprised you can believe that's the real issue here. Maybe some of the frothers on this have convinced you that's the case but it's not something I've come across in speaking to anyone up here when talking about this subject. Small sample I grant you but I've never spoken to anyone who has expressed those thoughts when considering how to weigh up this sort of decision.

Scots might well vote for economic Armageddon via independence but it seriously has got feck all to do with making a political point for the sake of it! As for comments on news sites re this - if that's your point of reference for how scots feel about independence then I don't really know what to say about that. I tend to stick to forums where I can at least have reasoned debate & steer clear of the rabid ranting of the extreme fringes on either side.

Gig, I've not even read TM's response yet - your post makes me think I'll not be impressed?

Catlover agree totally - cannot bear the pathetic hate and ignorance stuff and casual racism that has been prevalent in both referendums and by implication is normalised in many communities. Whatever happens next I hope we can all - politicians, media and electorate - raise the bar a mile or so higher there. So (long as Trump hasnt normalised intolerance and insults in the interim. )

Well, there are 650 MPs out of which only 59 are Scottish, 40 Welsh and 18 Irish. So, over 500 MPS out of the 650 are English. The vaste majority.

What's wrong with that?

Population:

Wales: 3.1 million
Scotland: 5.3 million
Northern Ireland 1.8 million
England: 54.7 million

84% of the UK population live in England and are represented in Parliament by English constituency MPs.

I thought TM's response was totally appropriate tbh. She didn't say that she would block the request (and I doubt she will, although I hope she insists on it being after the Brexit negotiations so its not all a leap in the dark). She expressed, I think, genuine frustration at the stance taken by NS, and I think many Scots will agree with her. She's absolutely right that there is no evidence of a desire for another referendum, and she's right that all other matters in Scottish life will once again take a back seat when most just want Holyrood to get on with the day job.

If we talk of a partnership Scotland - England - Wales - Northern Ireland, it cannot really work "We, the English, are more than the rest of you are, so you have to do what we say". Then you can't really be surprised that a lot of the Scots want Independence! They want to be able to make their own decisions.

If Scotland can have another referendum can't we have another one on Brexit? After all lots of people might have changed their minds .....

You could vote for a party with another referendum in their manifesto missy I didn't vote SNP in 2016, but they and the Greens both had fresh refs in their manifesto.

I can't for the life of me understand why people would think that because of the awfulness of Brexit, we should unleash more disaster upon the people of the UK by having another independence referendum. Economic uncertainty isn't a fixed factor - if you add in more unknowns, you create more uncertainty. It's idiocy to say that we're fucked anyway over Brexit so let's properly fuck ourselves over by dis-integrating the United Kingdom as well - there is no Scottish deal with the EU on the table.

Let me know what you think Plectrum when you do. I am totally menopausal so open to the possibility that I am oversensitive but my immediate impression was that TM was very pissed off , and basically saying how very dare you, get on with your wee job while I do my far more important one of saving Britain.
Such a missed opportunity to convey better that representing Scotland's interests is still her job actually, which is a totally fair point. The transcript shows that was the intent perhaps, but the delivery fell rather short imo. 😀

She's absolutely right that there is no evidence of a desire for another referendum

People voted for independence supporting parties in great enough numbers for them to have a majority in ScotParl. The SNP also garnered the largest number of votes by a sizeable margin for a Manifesto that specifically stated that Brexit = Indyref2.

84% of the UK population live in England and are represented in Parliament by English constituency MPs

It's perfectly fair as long as you don't live in one of the countries that are almost entirely ignored. The UK was meant to be a union of equals, not Wales/NI/Scot being treated as part of the Empire.

TM has a problem in that she is trying to argue simultaneously that the Brexit referendum and consequent Brexit is a rational reasonable thing to do, whilst a Scottish referendum and is it is somehow irrational and unreasonable.

missy I quite agree - let's work on ways to beat or minimize the impact of Brexit rather than tearing ourselves into pieces.

People voted for independence supporting parties in great enough numbers for them to have a majority in ScotParl. The SNP also garnered the largest number of votes by a sizeable margin for a Manifesto that specifically stated that Brexit = Indyref2.

And this may technically give them a mandate (and mean that they will get it through the Scottish Parliament) but it doesn't translate to popular support. People vote for political parties for all kinds of reasons; that definitely does not mean that they agree with every clause in the manifesto of their first choice. I know many people, for instance, who voted SNP because they believed them to be the socialist choice and were disillusioned with labour - this doesn't make them independence supporters.

The only real indication we have of the current level of support for another independence referendum (as a specific question) is the opinion polls, which consistently show a majority are against it, at least at the present time.

I'm glad it's finally going ahead, although if it's another no, we'll be leaving. It was devastating enough last time, but if we are to leave the EU I will be going home (with DH of course!).

youcannot yep, fair play I did plead that I might be oversensitive. But she really did seem really narked/caught on the hop....didnt she. Perhaps TM thought she had an understanding that NS would not rain on her parade at this point, it is clear talks were difficult.

Yes NS should be getting on the the day job, but is that code for "not your concern, little girl?" - the day job is an even bigger concern for the electorate in England without a devolved parliament to do so, surely?

Gig, I've read it now & I agree with your analysis. It's, ahem, unhelpful at best I think. She's certainly not endearing herself with those of us with concerns over her shambolic handling of Brexit thus far. Remind me again why it was deemed appropriate to blow more cash on appealing the court ruling on allowing parliament to vote on Brexit when there was no chance of successfully overturning that decision?

Pfft, they're as bad as each other & neither one has the moral high ground on this.

Wasn't English Nationalism responsible for the Brexit vote?

plectrum exactly this. ("Unhelpful"). I am hopelessly naive but currently our mutual bond is horror at the downgrading of US political standards and the last thing we need is our own heads of government being less than respectful or overly personal. And certainly not having one rule for themselves and one for another. A missed opportunity for a more conciliatory or certainly more confident response. There is so much more at stake here
I am sending boxsets of Borgen and The West Wing, possibly Yes Prime Minister to the bally lot of them. Although I suspect NS knows the scripts backwards.

Gig yes, she definitely seemed narked. I assumed it was because she in favour of the union in a general sense, but I wonder if you're right and they did have some kind of agreement with NS. NS was very critical of TM in her speech this morning, saying that WM hadn't given an inch despite many opportunities to compromise etc etc - maybe TM had a different feeling from the talks, that maybe they were making progress? She did say some things to that effect. I guess we'll never know.

I didn't get the sense that she was belittling NS - more that she was putting the other side across - that Scots want the Scottish Government to sort out problems like the NHS, education, policing etc. rather than getting bogged down in another referendum. I think it's fair comment that many (most?) of us are sick to the back teeth of the whole issue.

Here's hoping your ploy works, gig

"I think she means this to be about the voice of Scottish people and good on her for thinking that."

Nicola Sturgeon only values the voice of the Scottish people when they agree with her. She has placed no value whatsoever on the voice of the Scottish people as expressed in 2014, nor in that expressed via recent opinion polls which state that 60%+ of Scottish people don't want another referendum.

The last one was horribly divisive and caused huge upset in Scotland, and the wounds are still not healed - so yay for having all that happen again.

Tbh, dh and I will consider leaving Scotland, if there definitely is going to be another Indyref - it will break my heart to leave somewhere I love, but the last indyref had a terrible effect on my mental health, and I am not sure I can take it again.

My reading of Sturgeon being told to get back to her day job was a reference to Scotland's schools losing ground in the world league tables recently - the SNP have made a shambles of education.