Second referendum announced!

[Isadora2007]

😳

Will your vote change next time?

You, the thing is, all that gets swept up with Brexit & indyref2 because it's all comes down to how we pay for all of it & right now there's zero details on this re Brexit & zero information on the impact on Scotland re whatever TM has decided to use tactically with these exit negotiations.

I don't get any sense that TM or any of the tories are actually listening to what they're being told over concerns on the exit deal. So much of the dismissive rhetoric about remoaners is prominent in the public discourse over this. And that is playing right into Sturgeon's hands. She's taking her own massive gamble, politically & personally, but she seems to sense it's a gamble worth taking.

As much as NS often gets slated for her blinkered views & stance on many issues, I think it's pretty striking that she's chosen now, today, to make this announcement & I'm not convinced by TM's response that NS's grounds for making that call are groundless or based on purely self interest. NS knows there's little support for independence & yet she still thinks it's worth this sort of all or nothing gamble?

As someone who voted remain I have zero confidence in what we are about to enter into. I would have liked to see a cross party coming together type of set up, using the best 'talent' we have to hammer out the best options for the UK as a whole & presenting more of a united front on this. I absolutely loathe the way this has unraveled as some sort of closed Tory talking shop with no clue as to what the hell they are planning to do.

I agree to an extent Plectrum - I also would have welcomed a cross-party negotiating team (are we sure this isn't going to happen? I know the committees taking evidence are cross party). I do have some sympathy for the 'cards close to chest' approach to negotiations, because to publish all our priorities would probably lead to a worse deal overall, but I also recognise why some are nervous about it.

I'm guessing that NS announced it today because of the wide-spread speculation that article 50 might be triggered tomorrow, she mentioned that in her speech, and that she was trying to get out ahead of it. Maybe even derail it, who knows. Unfortunately I have zero faith in NS's intentions or ability, and I think whatever happens we're in for a rough ride ahead.

the SNP have made a shambles of education
I suspect NS could make a similar accusation back at TM.
So much complaining about education from posters in England on mumsnet.

why is it assumed yes would be leave again?

should be the other way around and give stay the positive word.

I have no idea how I would vote. I'm still not convinced we can survive alone.

It's sad but I understand why and I think it's fair to have a second referendum given that Brexit result changed everything. I read that support for independence has increased quite a lot recently due to the increasing awareness that the government isn't remotely prepared for Brexit and we might well be out of the single market when it's done. The EU Commission have said also that Scotland would need to apply but would very likely meet requirements and jump the queue because of that. Spain has now announced it would have no objections either as they consider the Scottish situation different to the Basque situation, so it looks like the EU is prepared to welcome an independent Scotland.

Now the tricky bit - the economics of becoming independent. The numbers don't look any better than last time unfortunately but then staying in the UK is a gamble as well as Brexit will push us all over a financial cliff (IMO).I believe Sturgeon mentioned last 2018 as a good time to schedule the referendum for, that's smart because at that point in time Brexit will really be hitting and the mood of the people will be very different. I actually wish I was Scottish rather than English right now, with Trump and his anarchists in office I'm terrified of the future outside of the EU. :(

Jdoe8 - as well as being very confusing, think of all the left over stickers and banners that could not be used if the sides were switched!

Divide and rule 101 Bunfight!

plectrum I have to agree with you again, and this takes me right back to why NS may have had no choice but to call this now.
On the most basic level WM are not communicating or consulting on the plan. Well, you cannot say that about NS.

Of course this is all about Brexit and choices/being powerless/not at the table. I really doubt NS saw this as a shoe in opportunity for indyref based on public sentiment. The electorate was confused before, dear god, now far right nationalism is rearing its head elsewhere, the Labour party is all over the place, Trump is a daily spectacle, there is clearly no magic economic wand and precious little credible data or scenario projections, and zero appetite for more heated referendum bad behaviour. There isnt a cat in hells chance of a common voter like me being able (or possibly even feel inclined) to make an informed decision next time around - just a rough guess of lesser evils based on economic fears and personal moral values. Perhaps thats the SNPs gamble, setting out a transparent stall early, on a better the devil you know ticket.

This is NS's risk assessment and damage limitation/insurance policy/spread bet for Scotland. It may well have a high personal price for her, so claims that this is just the SNPs indy obsession rings very hollow to me. On the contrary it feels like some hard scenario modelling has actually been done somewhere in Edinburgh and the chess moves agreed.

It will be interesting if the London remoaners increase their jostling for attention too. There is a whole, whole lot of international money, EU workers and vested interest tied up there which quite frankly will be a much bigger thorn in TMs side than NS if they embarrass or weaken negotiations.

I think @jdoe8 is right - I don't think that the nationalists should be allowed to 'bag' the positive choice this time. Let them argue for 'No' and get accused of negative campaigning (I know this wasn't the only reason Better Together were accused of being negative, but I genuinely believe that it is harder to run a positive campaign when you want people to vote No than if you are campaigning for Yes).

I think the question should be emotionally neutral for both sides - i.e. a ballot paper with two choices:

I wish Scotland to remain in the UK.

and

I wish Scotland to become independent

• and voters tick the box by their choice. I'm sure Scottish voters are intelligent enough to cope with this - they don't need a simple Yes/No choice.

Not all Yes supporters are nationalists... for example myself who is not Scottish (but resident). Actually, I think there is an almost even spread between my independence supporting friends of Scots and those from other EU countries, but who live in Scotland.
It is British nationalism that worries, and at times scares me.

I wonder if it wouldn't be better for the rUK to forge a future out of Europe without unwilling Scotland. Dead weights and all that?

If Scotland votes for independence, remind me who will be the Bank of last resort?

It won't be the Bank of England?

Scottish Euro perhaps?

I don't think Scotland should be looking to the BoE given how badly the Pound is doing after Brexit was simply announced. I don't think it is going to do very well once it actually happens, put it that way.
I would prefer the Euro on a personal level, I don't like having to exchange currency on a regular basis as the majority of my travel is between Scotland and another EU country.

D1az absolutely. In the current climate if I was the SNP I would seriously be dropping the 'N' word and changing my name to pro-independent/liberal socialist/inclusive/left of centre/pro-immigration/multicultural/general good eggs/non-haters/nothing to do with UKIP, Hitler or Trump etc etc etc.

Disclaimer: no idea if all above are SNP values, but I am pretty sure far right anti-immigration policies are not. Why make life difficult for yourself when the electorate is so confused already?

I'm not sure vast numbers of people are trying to immigrate into Scotland. We can be as pro immigration and anti racist as we like, until we have anything approaching the numbers that England has its just virtue signalling.

I'm just fed up people trying to solve the big economic problems by asking the wrong questions.

I feel that the problem is that there's a vast gulf between the rich and the poor, and this endless subdivision of united groups of countries into ever smaller independent units is not solving that.

We need to stop arguing amongst ourselves, and stand up to the people who are stopping the redistribution of wealth.

All these votes are just a distraction.

I don't think the pro-independence campaighpners should be allowed to appropriate the saltire either. They don't love Scotland any more than the pro-union campaigners.

We will all vote based on what we think is best for Scotland, because we want the best for the country we love.

There are 30,000 Spaniards in Edinburgh Morris. Out of approx 600,000 population overall. That's roughly the same proportion as total EU migrants in the UK. So there are loads of people trying to immigrate into Scotland.

So in the obvious absence of vast tracts of anti-Spanish rhetoric issuing from Auld Reekie I'll put that down to a welcome in practice rather than just virtue signaling.

This is what I can't understand though - Brexit has unleashed a huge amount of uncertainty, why would you think adding Scottish independence to the mix would create anything other than an even worse macro economic shock? I can't understand this idea that adding another huge shock and additional set of problems such as Scotland's entry to the EU and currency etc would be ok now all the same because of Brexit. Just seems like fuddled thinking. We should be fighting Brexit terms not fighting for independence. Yes, May may have made a mess of education in England, that doesn't mean the SNP haven't in Scotland - they desperately lack accountability.

Hear hear ipsomatic people are voting for independence based on the idea it will somehow fix things but it is not social policy.

We need to stop arguing amongst ourselves, and stand up to the people who are stopping the redistribution of wealth

The problem is the folk in England keep voting in Tory governments so that's not going to happen any time soon.

We should be fighting Brexit terms not fighting for independence.

I believe that has been tried, and WM has steadily refused any input from any of the "devolved" nations.

but it is not social policy

No it's not. But it is a blank slate. An independent Scotland could make all of its own decisions, not just the few things it is allowed to by WM.

It's not a blank slate at all, you'd have a huge macroeconomic collapse and very little money to do anything and years of falling incomes and wealth. It's hardly going to result in improved social conditions.