Second referendum announced!

[Isadora2007]

😳

Will your vote change next time?

You can't just veto everything though.

Indeed. Mainly because the EU doesn't grant the power of veto to most legislative areas.

I don't live in Scotland so this is a genuine question..

What else aside from always talking about a second Indy vote has Nicola done for Scotland?

I'm assuming being from north England we are only being told about her wanting that vote as rest doesn't affect the uk.

I think the timing given - autumn '18 - is quite deliberate & actually quite 'canny' for Sturgeon. If article 50 is triggered today/this week/this month then by autumn '18 we should know what's happening/what's being negotiated/what's up for grabs/what's being dangled/what's being thrown under a bus, and it should I hope be clear by then what the Brexit negotiators are trying to achieve & how the settlement/exit deal is looking. How that affects Scotland, again I hope, will also be clear. I guess that'll be what determines the outcome of a 2nd referendum & might just keep May/the Brexit negotiators on their toes so they don't get complacent on what they sacrifice at the negotiating table.

I think I'm seeing this more of a political chess move, albeit a mahoosive one, on SNP's part because May has been rigid on giving nothing away in terms of what's on the negotiating table.

It's almost suicidal on the part or Sturgeon/the SNP but if Brexit negotiations are an unmitigated disaster that would be the only way a 2nd referendum would possibly swing towards independence.

But, again, it's going to be another total rammy up here for the next 18 or do mths. I don't know if I can bear another referendum campaign that lasts 18 mths.

What an utterly depressing start to the week. I can't believe we will have to go through this all over again. "Once in a generation' my arse. No then and No now.

I guess that'll be what determines the outcome of a 2nd referendum & might just keep May/the Brexit negotiators on their toes so they don't get complacent on what they sacrifice at the negotiating table

That assumes May gives a shit about Scotland leaving. Why should she? Without Scotland she's got a massive majority? I never really understood why DC was so "better together".

No before, no now, and beyond sick of all of this.

That assumes May gives a shit about Scotland leaving. Why should she? Without Scotland she's got a massive majority? I never really understood why DC was so "better together"

Exactly - Scotland leaves the UK, rUK is outside the EU - guaranteed Tory majority (except in London and a few cities) and a lovely right wing future for us all - kiss goodbye to any welfare, worker's rights etc.

This all plays right into the right wing Tories' hands. Maybe it was all part of Cameron's big plan after all.

Yes then yes now.

TM can't say no to the referendum (politically speaking). She can't say "we had a referendum where we decide to fuck ourselves with a sideways umbrella and therefore we will respect that decision" and then say "referendum are bad things so you can't have one".

She can say "but the timing will be after Brexit". She could argue that the country and government are too busy with one messy divorce to focus on another potential divorce. She could also argue that would be fair to Scottish people because they could compare a known set of outcomes against a possible set of outcomes.

Sturgeon wants to make the vote happen during an unknown vs unknown time period. Because the SNP learned their lesson last time on this one.

Sadly, we have opened the Pandora's box on referenda now. Too many in a few years and now people want them all over. It will be interesting to see if this does spell the end of parliamentary democracy.

Can't - the lack of shits given by May will no doubt fuel the SNP agenda for independence. I'm pretty sure that's what sturgeon is gambling on. She's maybe already got a sense of that from her dealings with her so far over Brexit & is sure she'll carry on regardless of the impact of sacrifices made that specifically affect Scotland.

That is, I think, the risk here. We can all debate til the cows come home about the economic suicide independence would be for Scotland via a 2nd referendum but if May starts chucking things into negotiations that specifically relate to & impact Scottish interests, I can foresee a huge upsurge in support for independence despite the lack of any coherent economic plan for that outcome of a 2nd referendum.

Wonder if we'll see that devo-max option on the ballot this time

Nope because that's not what the Scottish government (and Greens) want. If that was on the ballot paper it would get a massive majority.

plectrum I think you're right. I suspect Scotland would rather live in a hut made out of shit that it built itself than a mansion built by an Englishman. .... which is why I'm slightly baffled that they're so angry about Brexit..... none so queer as folk.

"If that was on the ballot paper it would get a massive majority"

I would consider moving from Yes to Dev-Max. Interestingly it was the Lib Dems who were the most vocal against it being on the ballot paper last time, not the indy supporters.

Should be remembered that Tony Blair always had a majority of English seats as did Harold Wilson and Clement Attlee. Won't happen under current Labour leadership obviously but permanent Tory majority not guaranteed.

No campaigner last time, Don't Know now and leaning to Yes. I think it will be difficult economically, but I also think Brexit will be a train-wreck.

WM blocking it would push me (and I imagine a lot of people) closer to Yes.

It might not even be about the EU, it might be about EFTA/EEA.

Lilmisskittycat
www.snp.org/record

Can't - the only part of your analogy that I have issue with is the assumption it's a mansion built by the Englishman it's a hut made of shit either way & that's how this will be viewed by the Scottish public.

ok, so there's the crux of it, right?

It doesn't matter how many white papers we write. Ballot paper may as well say

How much do you hate the English?

a) I consider myself a brother in arms with Braveheart
b) Quite a lot but I'll not get myself het up about it?

For fucks sake it's not about hating the English, I campaigned along side English folk & many other nationalities last time, we have loads of English snp members including MPs, MSPs & councillors.

It's a no from me.

Och, if it was about how much the English are hated then there would have been a majority last time round!

Its a nuanced issue and needs somewhat more detailed analysis than the simple thoughts there Cantseethewoods

Eh? Where did I even mention hating the English? As fannyfifer says, the whole question of Scottish independence has nothing to do with hating the English. I actually took your analogy to be along the lines of believing all the usual crap posted about Scotland being subsidised by the English i.e. The 'mansion' of your analogy - when the reality on how money is allocated for Scotland has to take into account the many remote areas of Scotland that require more money to function & we don't just sit on a pile of English cash lording it up while English tax payers get shafted.

FFS do we still have to even have this sort of debate?

No- my analogy was that Scotland would rather declare independence from England to make a political point, even if they're actually economically worse off, which is exactly what the Uk may have done in leaving the EU. It's ridiculous for Scots to think they'll be economically better off as an independent country of 5 million aging people with a dwindling oil supply. But people want to believe it. Hence my earlier point that if independence and having self- rule is really the crux of this, then they should go for it but I don't think that it's necessarily a sound economic decision. Re do the Scots hate the English, read some of the comments in the press today, and the thing is that it's those people who will decide it. Not the liberal 'live and let livers'. They may not hate indivudual English people but they hate the Westminster parliament which they see as an English parliament. Rather like Brexiteers hate the European Parliament rather than individual 'Europeans.'

Well, there are 650 MPs out of which only 59 are Scottish, 40 Welsh and 18 Irish. So, over 500 MPS out of the 650 are English. The vaste majority.

Sorry, posted too soon. Over 500 MPS out of 650 may make it obvious for the Scots that things get done how England wants. If, for example, England votes for austerity, or a war, or.. whatever, Scotland can do nothing to prevent it.