Second referendum announced!

[Isadora2007]

😳

Will your vote change next time?

I think Theresa must be a secret Yesser. She's done more for the movement today than a thousand campaign events could ever achieve.

mirrors yes I would be surprised if they didn't.

My perspective is this...

I have no problem with others having any amount of wealth. I literally think it is great if people manage to get dirty stinking rich. Why? Because all those dirty stinking rich people contribute by investing and boosting the economy and creating jobs. The more successful they are, the more successful we all are and it becomes easier to provide benefits and services for the poor.

Socialism is a load of shite and never works because it frightens rich people away, then there are more poor people needing assistance and less tax revenue to pay for it. The government have more involvement in the lives of the citizens and they become evil overlords flying around in shiny helicopters. It is the same the world over and so I am one of those evil right wingers that wants to encourage wealth... capitalist pig indeed. (And partly English too yuk!!!)

Maybe she is. Affluent friends in southern England can't understand why the Tories aren't all Yessers. An independent Scotland would make it so much harder to get a Labour government in Westminster.

Scotland could manage its economy a lot better than WM has. Why aren't you all raging about them having pissed our past oil revenues up the wall? Spending and spending (and not on Scotland) and not saving any of it. Norway invested some and is now rolling in it.

I agree the oil is no longer such an issue. But fgs, WM have really really fucked up our economy, seriously. We literally couldn't do any worse if we were independent.

As for May refusing permission for a scotref. We didn't want one 'now'. Plus, a non-legally-binding referendum worked okay for Brexit to happen.

If the SNP weren't a united front in the face of relentless bias and hatred and desperate Unionists and so on - there would be no chance of independence for Scotland.

I think there's some truth in this actually, although I think that independence would be a disaster. The SNP are incredibly organised and very good at rallying their troops, and have somehow been able to control the narrative going out to Scotland. The voices disagreeing, and pointing out the flaws in their plans (or the outright lies) are more fragmented and easier to ignore.

The referendum has now been delayed until after Brexit, which is surely the only sensible decision if we're to have any chance of making an informed choice, but the issue isn't going to go away. So the question is, how can we get the Unionist point of view into the mainstream and challenge the SNP more? How do we become organised?

I also completely reject the "relentless bias and hatred" interpretation, just to be clear.

Gruffalo, why are the small percentage of big filthy rich corporations and people not creating decent jobs? Just zero hours ones etc? Greed. Having that elite one percent does not help us one tiny bit.

you literally could Nyx. Even if for a second I bought the tosh about Scotland's oil being appropriated and ransacked by RUK, why would you then want to leave RUK when they're having to bail out Scotland now when it is economically not viable to extract the oil and the reserves are running out. You're defeated by your own argument.

Calyx thank you for answering.
this thread is moving so quick I'm just dipping in and out as I can!
I'm also interested in the tax raising issue - there could have been more money in Scotland's pot, what are the thoughts on this? And what powers do the MSPs have if their constituents are asking them for more socialist policies?

How is it tosh? It is true. It has been admitted (McCrone). Nobody is bailing out Scotland fgs. There are reserves there for quite a while yet.

Nicola'so toys are always out of the pram. She never gives up moaning and blaming someone else.

As a no voter and non SNP voter one thing NS could do to impress folk like me is stand up and put your hand up and say at times we got this wrong and will learn from our mistake. Named person and education are 2 biggies that stand out.

Another thing a lot her her supporters could do is a aknowledge that actally more people in Scotland (1.6 million) voted for parties other than the SNP and the only reason you have 56 (or is it 54 now) SNP MPs is down to the flawed FPTP system. Recognise currently just over half of Scotland is not being represented at all and that is why we are angry.

An independent Scotland could change the way they tax the oil industry. They could do all sorts of things differently. Nobody will know until they have a chance to try. But WM have not covered themselves in glory. I don't understand how anyone with their eyes open could say they have. And now Brexit. Well. How wonderful to be part of the UK. Not.

If Scotland were independent, Cheese, you would have proper representation.

Hattie I think because at present WM takes Scottish revenues and gives a portion back via Barnett; if taxes raised and more money raised, Barnett reduces leading to no more actual money for Scotland but SNP having raised taxes (therefore hacking some people off as tax raises may)

This thread is nearly full

As for 'Scotland gets more from the Union than it pays in".

“Scotland at the moment is a net beneficiary of the fiscal union between England and Scotland. That hasn’t always been the case, but it is at the moment. However, Scotland would be a net contributor to the EU” - Merryn Somerset Webb, 17 November 2016

"The gap between what the Scottish government spends and what it collects in taxes is higher than the rest of the UK, according to its official figures. So at the moment, Scotland’s public finances benefit from fiscal union.

This hasn’t always been the case. The benefit varies from year-to-year. If we include Scotland’s geographical share of oil revenue, which goes to the UK government as a whole, then Scotland’s percentage deficit was smaller than the rest of the UK in 2005/6, and for four years from 2007/8 until 2011/12.

And it’s hard to say what Scotland’s public finances would look like after independence. It’s not clear what responsibility an independent Scotland would take for costs like UK government debt - that would have to be negotiated. And the revenues from North Sea oil and gas are also quite uncertain, since the price of oil and gas is relatively changeable.

Whether or not an independent Scotland would be a net contributor to the EU - and whether it would be able to remain a member in the first place - is a task for another day. Although it makes sense that as a comparatively rich country it would pay in more than it gets out. Analysis from both the Scottish and UK governments seems to back that up.

This factcheck is part of a roundup of BBC Question Time. "

The years where we paid in more than we got back - never ever mentioned. Those are the years where we would have been paying into an oil fund which would then have cushioned us last year. Like Norway. Like the SNP have been wanting to do for years.

well the IFS believes the Scottish tax payers are getting an incredibly good deal from the RUK tax payers:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/12200495/IFS-Scotland-to-get-billions-of-English-income-tax.html

Hattie we are consulted on policies. My MSP seems to be fairly socialist at present anyway

IFS also notes the deal 'largely insulates' Scotland from economic shocks! IFS is a very serious group of policy economists and independent.

Nyx, that's the benefit of pooling and sharing within the UK. Why the hell would we leave now when we are getting back more than we pay in?

There's no time machine to go back and make an oil fund and I don't believe one would have been set up anyway even if Scotland had been independent.

Perhaps we should be independent then NoLottery, so that the poor rUK taxpayers forking out for us will be that much better off. I would vote for that.

at the moment, because of years of socialist (labour governments) and the economic crisis that followed the recession, combined with free movement has created a very high level of competition for candidates in the labour market.
Many of these candidates had got to the stage where they were so desperate they will accept poor working conditions. The ones that do not wish to accept poor conditions will find it harder to find work.
The simple fact is that where there is wealth, economic growth and job creation companies who do not provide appealing working conditions would not be able to get staff and therefore it would lead on the whole to improving working conditions. Ie. proper terms of employment etc.

come on - did you read it? Cushioned from macro-shocks by RUK giving us money. It's ridiculous to give this up at this juncture...

Trixy, it looks like pooling and sharing has benefited Westminster for longer than it has benefited Scotland. Thatcher decimated our industries and spent the oil money. We don't have a time machine but I am praying that we can get independence now so that the Conservatives' hard Brexit does not damage our economy even more. Enough is enough.