Second referendum announced!

[Isadora2007]

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Will your vote change next time?

If we vote together for a party that represents the needs of scotland and some similar areas of england (like the north and the south west) and Wales and Northern Ireland we stand a very good chance of making headway at Westminster. Voting for hostile nationalist parties only makes it more likely for a tory government in Westminster to succeed.

^Exactly this. While Scotland insists on voting for a party that only stands in Scotland, they will never have much of a voice at Westminster, which I suspect is part of the SNP grand plan ("Look, Scotland is ignored all the time..."). However, when Scotland joins forces with other parts of the UK, and there are massive swathes of the North of England that are just as left wing as Scotland (and are, in fact, pretty much identical to Scotland in every way), collectively we have the power to make a difference.

Personally, I'd favour a change towards a proportional representation system, as all views would get more air time that way. I understand the argument about the constituency MP being a advocate for their constituents, but lets face it - in Scotland that doesn't happen anyway because they all have to tow the party line at all times. (I'm considering writing to my SNP MP to ask them to oppose an independence referendum when it's debated, given that the polls consistently show that the 'will of the people' is not to have one, at least not now. I wonder what kind of response I'd get?)

No, I'm not a brexiteer. I think both are ecomically stupid ideas.

If we're talking about u turns than have a better look at the SNP and their policies, they are the masters of flip flopping.

I do quite like Kezia Dugdale but she looks knackered - she just isn't as scrappy as Davidson or display the same passion.

Yes I do know what you mean about Ruth Davidson and I've watched her get the better of NS in the Scottish parliament a few times. Shame she's a Conservative though!

Bloody party politics.

Fontella, Labour have imploded in Scotland as a result of their smooching the Tories in the run up to the 2014 independence referendum and since then, their either abstaining on votes relating to Scotland or voting with the Tories.

Also people in Scotland are angry with their complete uselessness in the Councils. Corruption and PFI scandals etc. Schools falling down (literally). No council houses being built. Etc etc etc.

how the SNP get away without being held to proper account

If enough people in Scotland believe this, they will be voted out of power.

There could always be a neverendum 2022 however.

Only if people want one, and vote in a pro indy majority again.

If it wasn't Brexit it would be some other reason

This I agree with. I don't think anyone (except perhaps the ridiculous Scottish Resistance) wanted another referendum so soon. It is too soon, and the current polls of 50/50 are just too chancy.

But Brexit, is huge. As countries Scotland and.NI didn't vote for it. Yet their citizens opinion counts for nothing in this. The UK Scots narrowly voted to remain part of.in 2014 is no longer in existence. In 2014 Scots.were told.that to stay in the EU they had to stay as part of the UK.

The UK may have voted to leave, but two of the constituent countries of the union did not.

yes Brexit is merely handing Sturgeon another chance to try and chivvy more people to voting for independence but it's not an either Brexit or independence choice. I'm not sure she's displayed any fixed principles except hating RUK and tories.

Oh, and yes, Kezia is rubbish. Flip flopping around and sighing and soundbiting. No use whatsoever. And Scottish Labour are no such thing. There is only one Labour Party. Jeremy has embarrassed Kezia a few times by going against what she says...it's a shambles.

I'm not a brexiter. I do, however, know a few Yes voters who are/were and also want Scotland out of Europe.

All I can see is years of referenda and division as surely if Scotland gains independence there will need to be another vote on whether to join the EU.

I'd vote for labour... perhaps. I used to, but there is Corbyn and I can't stand abbot either.

Dugdale wavered on independence once too and that was enough to put me straight off.

Nolotterywin- thanks. I believe the polar opposite of you and I feel strongly that independence will be good (necessary even) for Scotland. Especially after Brexit although I felt it even before. I completely and totally believe it is imperative that we each follow what we feel is the right thing. I would not call unionists names or patronise them and am here out of interest and in case I learn something useful. My mum and family are mostly unionists.

Independence isn't just an SNP issue. There are people from many parties, age groups, walks of life who believe in it too (nearly half of those polled in recent months). I know the SNP have faults but I think they are governing as well as they can with what they have for people in Scotland. There's no other option for Government at the moment. Conservatives have right wing policies I can't agree with. We need a welfare state and for big business and rich folk to pay what they owe and we have to stop cutting benefits and even treating pensions as a piggy bank, as a benefit to be held back.

Springyflowery - I want to tell you to fuck off but I won't

I also think it will only be Wales we are turning our back on, not NI, they will be doing something pretty similar too, I'm sure. But Wales despite huge amounts of EU money, voted to Brexit too. At least Scotland and NI understood what was really at stake.

How dare you suggest we didn't understand what we were voting for! Do you know anything at all about Wales and the Welsh?

There is no such thing as EU money. The only money the EU has is what it paid into its coffers by its net contributors - of which the UK is one. Then millions are creamed off to pay for the layers of bureaucracy and what is left is doled out to the poorer regions. That's 'EU money'.

In Wales it is our UK neighbours who have our loyalty, not a bunch of Brussels bureaucrats.

I would also remind you that without the Scottish and Northern Irish leave voters - LEAVE could not have won! Those two regions gave LEAVE the majority so don't blame Wales because it didn't go the way you wanted it to. Have a word with those 1.1 million of your fellow Scots instead whose votes ensured LEAVE was first over the winning line.

and I can't stand abbot either.

Oh god no, she is bloody awful. I know someone who knows her in real life and I won't repeat here what he thinks of her.

It never ceases to amaze me why the hell her constituents keep voting her back in. If she was my MP I'd be embarrassed.

I honestly feel that scotland would be better served under the scottish conservatives.

The whole "but I'd never vote for a consevasive" thing is so silly, when the social attitudes in this country align pretty well with a conservative government!!!
I think (because of the 80s) people are perfectly happy to completely write them off, when there is no good reason to and I really hope that changes. It would boost the scottish economy and get much needed jobs and investment back...

Then they can try to persuade me on independence.

do, however, know a few Yes voters who are/were and also want Scotland out of Europe

I have seen a few people suggest that as well as being simpler membership of EFTA might be the way to go, as then fisheries etc would not necessarily be under EU control.

Every time she speaks she is so evasive. It is just like one long exhale....

Blah blah blah... God I can't stand her.

(Above was about abbot)

Oh Gruffalo. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your insistence that Scotland social attitudes are aligned with Conservatives. That's why we just have the lovely Mundell, is it? Gosh, we are all just so silly.

The whole "but I'd never vote for a consevasive" thing is so silly, when the social attitudes in this country align pretty well with a conservative government!!!

They do? Have you got a reference for that?

I do think though, that the Conservatives could do quite well in an indy scotland (as well as labour)

Even though eg Ruth Davidson had pretty high approval ratings, the Scottish conservatives (again, like Scottish Labour) are "tainted" by the WM parties.

Independence is the only hope for Labour in Scotland and the Conservatives would probably pick up too. SNP would have to disband or compete/be held to account and surely that would make lots of people happier.

I take it all the No to independence voters are Brexiters, here.

Nope

calyx Do you mean independence for Scotland, or the Scottish Conservatives/ Labour becoming independent? (I suspect either would help)

Personally think Kezia is also worn out trying to fight the idiocy at the heart of the WM labour party. None of the facts about the unelectable position of the labour party are sufficient for me to think that we'd be better off alone though with our fine socialist principles and no money with which to help anyone. The labour party will eventually get rid of JC when he gets a total drubbing in the next GE, voting out of the union is irreversible.

Itsall- independence for Scotland. But yes, either would help, right enough.

She comes across as a harassed middle manager implementing unpopular decisions

I totally agree with this about kezzer.