Second referendum announced!

[Isadora2007]

😳

Will your vote change next time?

I just looked into the Social attitudes issue, and, amazingly, it does seem that Scotland and England are broadly aligned on most things. See the charts in the link below.

This article is from a couple of years ago, and it will be interesting to see what if any change there is. It seems that while Scots are more likely to identify themselves as left wing, when you ask them about immigration and welfare etc, the differences, if any, are very small. In both cases, most people wanted immigration reduced. Also, in both cases, most felt that welfare payments were too high, although the Scot 'majority' was smaller than the English. It also appears that overall we've become less socially democratic in recent years rather than more.

"But the authors, John Curtice and Rachel Ormston, conclude the difference in Scotland's social democratic nature to England's is "only modest" and since the advent of devolution, the nation of the Saltire has become "less - not more - social democratic"."

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/scottish-politics/11242539/Scotland-and-England-How-different-are-they-really.html

mother the key was in the 'the UK is a net contributor' which means that they pay in more than they get back in subsidies. Most people are small c conservatives - i.e. against change.

yes i don't know how we came to be a UK with a very big united centre left to soft right popular consensus and yet we can't seem to get this type of government elected - we have a mob running the PLP, nationalists in Scotland and Brexiteers in charge of the tory party...I can't think this is the permanent situation given that most people are centrist moderates.

the UK is a net contributor' which means that they pay in more than they get back in subsidies

Which of course is a very narrow way of looking at it. There are many other less measurable benefits too.

true, agree with that. Similarly, any potential deal Scotland might get from the EU would need to be fully costed out including where the money for EU membership etc would come from. It's true that the deal Scotland might get from the EU would not be the same deal the UK has, so we can't preserve the EU status quo by voting for independence (other consequences aside), that ship has sailed with the UK voting for Brexit.

calyx thank you for posting the link to the EU legal analysis a few pages back. I found it interesting and informative. An appreciation of the legal ramifications is useful (nay, essential) in understanding what the politicians have to work with and corrects a number of comments around entry and currency that I have read elsewhere. It is entirely possible that another Professor of Law may interpret or debate the requirements slightly differently in due course - interpretation of the law in uncharted territory is inevitable - but I certainly feel better informed. Thanks.

I take it all the No to independence voters are Brexiters, here

Sorry, I know the thread has moved on a bit, but I have to take this up with motheroffourdragons.

How very dare you , I voted remain and am a No voter. The SNP is the nationalist movement (like the Brexiteers), not the unionists.

Do you not even see how similar the Yes and Leave campaigns were? Sheesh, they used the same language, the same reasoning, all you had to do was substitue a few nouns and it was the same argument! How on earth do you get to Leave = No voters?

Well said Latin. Indyref and Brexit are two cheeks of the same arse.

Latin another point I've been trying to make - little Englanders, little Scotlanders and America First. All knee-jerk nationalist movements.

I too voted remain and No, @LatinForTelly.

Fontenella I am as entitled to my opinion as anyone on an anonymous internet forum. So you think the UK doesn't get money back from the EU then ? You've not read all the info on this before the EU referendum

Yes you are entitled to your opinion but it would help if you didn't make such ridiculous sweeping generalisations and if you would also actually read what I wrote!

I know a great deal about 'EU money' having worked in a profession that involved direct involvement with EU administrators and funding. But 'EU' money as you call it is paid in by net contributors of which the UK is one. I never said money never came back into the UK. We all know it does. What I said was it comes back after millions are creamed off to pay for the layer upon layer of bureaucracy, the two parliament building, the enormous salaries etc. All that is taken out of member contributions before anything is paid back into regions and project funding.

Your post clearly said that the Welsh didn't 'understand' what they were voting for while the enlightened Scots and Northern Irish did.

You speak as if the whole of Scotland got it right and the whole of Wales got it wrong because of their lack of understanding. I merely pointed out what utter bollocks that is.

This was a one person one vote referendum that was open to all UK citizens. Wales overall voted marginally in favour of LEAVE , as did England overall. In Scotland and Northern Ireland it was the opposite. But all of this is irrelevant because it has got absolutely fuck all to do with geographical regions ... it was the total number of votes that mattered.

And in order for LEAVE to win it required the combined total of the Scottish and Northern Irish LEAVE voters. The England/Wales totals alone would not have done it! If everyone in Scotland and Northern Ireland had voted to REMAIN, then there would be no Brexit happening. It was Scottish and Northern Irish votes that swung it.

So how the fuck you blame the Welsh for it, I'm not quite sure. It seems that over a million of the 2.6 million Scots who voted ... are just as stupid as you suggest the Welsh are.

Do you not see the utter ridiculousness of your sweeping statement about the 'Welsh' not understanding what they were voting for. It's got fuck all to with being Welsh or anything else. It's how an individual, be they Northern Irish, Scottish, English or Welsh ... felt about the EU when they cast their vote. And the combined totals of all those people in all those regions is what won the referendum!!

Cheers Gigha

That is very interesting and intelligently put, @Fontella. I didn't know that it was the NI and Scottish Leave votes that swung the overall result.

Am regular but have name changed, I don't want my usual happy MN existence of cake and craft and The Archers poisoned by my presence on the Indyref boreds boards.

Itsallgoingtobefine - "The UK Scots narrowly voted to remain part of.in 2014 is no longer in existence. " 55% to 45% isn't a particularly narrow victory!

What I object to is the Nats painting Scotland as a left wing socialist utopia where no-one is racist and we're different to the rest of the UK (OK, mainly different to England), kinder, more tolerant and accepting, and if it wasn't for the evil WM Tories there would be no poverty, everyone would go to university and get a brilliant well paid job is a socially and environmentally acceptable industry. It's bollocks.

Highlanders and Islanders are as much like Glasgow shipyard workers as a Liverpudlian dock worker is like a Surrey stockbroker. A Borders farmer is more like a Yorkshire farmer than an Edinburgh banker. We are not homogenous.

The Nats have had 10 years to prove that Scotland is capable of being a successful independent country. There has been no sign of this coming to fruition.

We will never know how many Scots really wanted to remain in the EU and how many wanted to leave due to Nicola Sturgeon's early announcement of another indyref if Scotland was dragged out of the EU against it's will - the result was so slanted as to be meaningless.

The SNP say they want to remain in the EU because of the free trade opportunities. What a joke. So they'll tie themselves to a bloc to which they export 20%, while cutting themselves off from a free trade arrangement where they export 80%. Don't get me wrong, I think Brexit is a bit daft for the same reasons, but talk about cutting off noses to spite faces is pretty apt.

NoLottery
"There is clearly a pro-Union consensus"
Really? I am not so sure. Multiple posts do not mean multiple votes.
Perhaps we should have a referendum.

Personally, I am sticking with this thread to learn some facts and try and understand other points of view. This situation is unprecedented, and extremely complex. I for one freely admit that I dont even know what being "pro-Union" in this current Brexit limbo, means, in detail, anymore.

So put me down as an 'open and interested'.

And in order for LEAVE to win it required the combined total of the Scottish and Northern Irish LEAVE voters

I'm unsure what you are saying here? If Scotland and Northern Ireland hadn't voted at all the result would still have been the same.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

Of course Scotland is capable of being an independent country. Why on earth wouldn't it be? If Scotland's money was in Scotland's hands we would thrive.

Gigha at least with this referendum if you're not sure just vote no. It's not as if it's a once in a generation opportunity.

I think there are many more No voters on these threads, Gigha, and I do admire ItsAllGoing and others for posting their thoughts and reasoning. It's also interesting to hear the other viewpoint.

I increasingly think though, that for the Yes's it's an ideological stance, not borne out currently by the figures. Even for Brexit, which I was against, the UK is at least the 6th largest economy in the world. It was understandable, though I think flawed, for some to think the UK could stand on her own.

Scotland doesn't even have that argument.

I suppose I'm saying you can't counter such a strongly held ideology with logic. Some folk seem to want independence whatever the cost.

Highlanders and Islanders are as much like Glasgow shipyard workers as a Liverpudlian dock worker is like a Surrey stockbroker. A Borders farmer is more like a Yorkshire farmer than an Edinburgh banker. We are not homogenous I agree with this, Bathsheba but it seems many others don't - see above.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, independence is normal. It is the situation we have here that is not. Scotland would be in the same position as the vast majority of normal, independent countries.

Your post clearly said that the Welsh didn't 'understand' what they were voting for while the enlightened Scots and Northern Irish did.

I have to agree fontella that comment really fucked me off and made my blood boil on your behalf.

Scotland doesn't even have that argument

That's a matter of opinion and I'm fairly certain both sides can produce interpretations of the available information to support their cases.

Nyx - agreed. If Scotland was independent just now it wouldn't be wise to join with the UK. In fact N Ireland and Wales are also now talking about independence themselves.

And in order for LEAVE to win it required the combined total of the Scottish and Northern Irish LEAVE voters

I'm unsure what you are saying here? If Scotland and Northern Ireland hadn't voted at all the result would still have been the same

Yes it would - but you can't take Scotland and Northern Ireland out of the equation. It was a UK wide vote, not a regional vote. Yes if it was confined to just England and Wales the result would have been the same, but it wasn't.

If all 2.6 million Scottish voters who voted on the day had voted REMAIN and all 800,000 Northern Irish voters had voted REMAIN then REMAIN would have won the day.

They didn't.

In Scotland 1,018,322 voted LEAVE.
In Northern Ireland 349,442 voted LEAVE.

Those combined totals add up to 1,367,764.

On a UK wide basis LEAVE won the day by 1,269.501 votes. That total includes the Scottish and Northern Ireland LEAVE voters.

You can't take Scotland and Northern Ireland out of the equation and say if no-one voted then the result would have been the same. It doesn't work like that - this was a one person one vote UK wide referendum and the Scottish and Northern Irish votes whichever way they went are counted in the total.

Highlanders and Islanders are as much like Glasgow shipyard workers as a Liverpudlian dock worker is like a Surrey stockbroker. A Borders farmer is more like a Yorkshire farmer than an Edinburgh banker. We are not homogenous I agree with this, Bathsheba but it seems many others don't - see above.

I agree too