life turned upside down

[dawntildusk]

I am really freaked out and need help putting this in perspective.
Here goes.
2 weeks ago a good friend of 25 years told me straight out that my dh (then boyfriend) raped her. It happened 14 years ago. She told me she has no recollection whatsoever of the night leading up to or immediately after the event. She woke up with him in the bed and he was inside her. She shouted at him and he left. Obviously I was shattered, devastated, nauseous, reeling from the shock. I sympathised with her, held her and hugged her and apologised over and over. When I confronted dh he was all the above multiplied by a million. His recollection of the event is this. We were all out drinking for the afternoon at a rugby match followed by the pub and then a club. 16 hours later we went to her house and he was helped to bed(by my brother and me). During the night he got out of our bed, he reckons to go to the bathroom, and climbed back in her bed. He remembers kissing and fondling, he does not deny he may have penetrated her but only "came too" after some kissing and they both realised what was happening at the same time. He left immediately, still really drunk and went back to bed.
I don't know what I am looking for by posting this but the word "rape" for me conjures up much different images than the one described to me. We have been married 12 years and have 4 beautiful children. My dh has been a kind, thoughtful, caring and supportive partner to me and I love him dearly. My friend is single, turning 40 this year and is blaming her recent breakdown on this event. I am so confused and need to know what you think. Is this rape?

Is this rape?

And to be clear, before i get massively flamed, I have been in a very very similar situatino and rousing from drunken fumble and panicking as just about to fuck someone. I was a stupid cow for getting so plastered but he didn't want to rape me - it all just got out of hand. I still feel very wobbly about it to be honest mainly through shame and embarassment about how shit-faced i was and how i was in a commited relationship - it would have been really easy for me to blame him - it would mean that it wasn't my fault.

Tartyhh, what would your next move be? our mutual friend has told me that my friend is feeling rejected by me because I have not been in touch. I feel I am not ready to get in touch with her because I cannot think how to approach the subject with her without sounding defensive. If I do come across as defensive then that may cause her more hurt and send her over the edge. To diffuse it slightly I thought I may get our mutual friend to let her know I have not had enough time to process everything and that in the future I will be ready to talk.

I find that so interesting that she is asking a mutual friend about things and feeling rejected by you - did she expect you to kick h out and choose her??? I agree with you that defensiveness will flip her out but she may be on a mission anyway and what you do has little effect.

I can see you are a nice kind person, yuo clearly do not want to hurt this woman but protecting yourself and h is the priority here not to mention the dc's. haing your friend mitigate for you with her is the best you can do i guess. I do wonder if it is worth taking some advice from the police or a lawyer as this may get ugly and being really upfront is best in this situation. It is a calculated risk of course but telling other people makes her a bit dangerous.

Get the mutual friend to reassure her but really i think this is a potentially explosive situation. She has found someone to blame for all her ills, she wont let go of that lightly.

Tartyhh, I think the answer to your question is yes, she did expect me to finish it with him instantly as she told me as much. When she was telling me about the incident she was comforting me and telling me that no matter what she would be my friend always and that if i needed help with kids etc. she would be there. I think that is why she is finding my reaction so hard to take as it is the complete opposite of what she expected I would do.

Gut reaction from me that its not rape...

I have made drunken mistakes, and i have also been raped when drunk. they were very different experiences, based on the INTENT of the males involved.

I was in work 2 years after the rape when one of the men walked into my office, and i was sick. I cannot see her spending time with him for 14 years, being your bridesmaid, and i would assume at some point over the years, BEING ALONE with him, if she genuinely believed he raped her. I knew it was illogical, but i was terrified of this man when i saw him at a later date, even though he was smaller than me and i would have kicked the shit out of him had he tried anything on his own.

By the way, on the "cant get an erection when drunk" debate, my fiance has had sex with me when drunk and not known about it in the morning...

Please take some advice from someone who knows about these things - you bunny is getting gently simmered at best.... this sounds really devisive and manipulative. Poor you this is terrible pressure - this pretended empathy about your situation is really quite sinister.

Sounds as if she wants you to be as wretched and miserable as she is. The fact that she has told others and the dcs could find out is really scary and actually is much more of an indicator of her true intentions. If this has really happened and i were your friend, I may have told you (but probably not) but I would have been aware that it wouldn't be straightforward for you to assimilate this knowledge. Take some legal advice because it might come to it that you have to gag her legally if she cannot back this up. I tell you now, this has not a snowball in hells chance of sticking so maybe being proactive is the answer here because she mustn't just go round blabbing her mouth to anyone (because of dcs) - your mutual friend needs to be clear about this with her too because whoever is to blame it is not the dcs.

yup, shes on self destruct anyway (drink and drugs! - was this before "the event" too??), and shes trying to take as many people down with her as she can...

Nattie, Jesus so sorry about your ordeal. I have also asked myself, as has my dh, how on earth she could have been so involved in our lives all these years if that is the way she felt? I asked dh the same question , by the way, about how HE did not try and discourage the friendship, especially after we moved away. He has always, through the years, been very supportive of our friendship and he and I were recollecting yesterday how my friend would have jokingly pleaded with dh to stay up after I announced I was off to bed on a few occassions. I would have expected a man who had knowingly raped a woman to try to distance himself( and his family) from her, unless of course he is a socioapathic liar and gets some kind of kick out of it but this def does not fit my husbands description, infact he is a dreadful liar, can't even tell a spoof story or a good joke and is well known for his honesty and slagged regularly by family and friends for his inability to lie!

Hi dawn glad you've had time to talk to your mutual friend. She knows your DH and your other friend, I take it- what is her take on all of this?

I do think it is a bit worrying that your friend is keen to find out how this has affected you and your DH- it suggests that she is hoping that her "revelations" will break up your relationship, and that is not nice at all. Furthermore, it sounds as if she is more interested in how it has affected you personally than how it has affected your DH- why should she want it to affect you? It is nothing to do with you! (Well, obviously given that she has now unburdened herself to you you are now deeply affected by it, but her issue is with your DH, not you)

If she really wanted to- what was it you said?- "unload and heal", why could she not have spoken to your DH? What insight could you possibly give her? Was she really telling you to force you into "taking sides" on an issue that you had no control over? From what you say, your DH sounds like a reasonable man. She has surely been socialising with him for 14 years. Why can she not therefore share her exhumed feelings with him? He is the only one who can tell her his side. he is the only one she should be directing her anger/ indignation/ hurt at, not YOU!

I've been thinking about this, and I would never ever put a friend in the position in which she has put you. it does sound to me as though she has alterior motives to just getting closure.

And I've been thinking about the whole "rape" tag as well. Just as murder isn't always murder- sometimes it is manslaughter- maybe we need another term that doesn't belittle the experiences of victims of actual, intentional rape.

If your dh was sober whilst she was so drunk then I would have said it was rape, but if he was in equally the same state then it sounds like a dreadful drunken mistake.
You and your dh's friends will also be asking how she could sustain your friendship for all that time.

Just a thought, but maybe she has only recently either realised or decided to call it rape. Possibly she mentioned it to a therapist, who then zoned in on it as an explanation for her problems. Would explain why it hadn't come up as a major issue before then.

yes Brahms, this can and does happen in therapy - whether that happened or not though what she haas done with that information is really unpleasant - her motives are not just about self healing they are about inflicting damage and placing herself in the middle of the drama (even if the cost is the loss of a family unit)

Jooly, I have asked that question too. Why tell me and not him? Surely if she felt the need to confront someone it should have been him? Our mutual friend knows all of us very well. When she was told by my friend ( by email) that my husband raped her she immediately jumped in the car ad drove 50 kms to her home and sat with her all night. ncredibly friend never told mutual friend anything more than "he raped me" but mutual friend did not ask any more questions as she was terrified of what she might hear. After I explained what friend had told me to mutual friend she felt the same way as I did. She feels incredible sorrow for friend who is obviously hurting alot but disagrees it was rape. Friend has couseller, 3 other friends who know and a brother who knows whereas I have me and dh ( and now you guys) to talk to. Our mutual friend has explained to friend that I need someone to talk to and that she needs to be there for me but that she will also be there for her. Just reading and writing these posts is throwing up new questions all the time, this must be what therapy feels like!

I'm a big lurker on the relationship boards and never post but felt compelled to post on this. I genuinely hope it helps because it
seems like you're going through hell.

There was a thread earlier in the week about a young girl who didn't consent to sex but who had sex done to her anyway. Someone (sorry I can't remember who) came on and said that, if someone hasn't consented to sex then they have been raped; however, this isn't to say that the person who had sex with them is a rapist. A rapist is someone who knows someone hasn't consented but carries on anyway. So you can be raped but the person who has had sex with you isn't a rapist as they don't know you didn't consent.

FWIW I was sexually assaulted in a night club 20 odd years ago and, while I consider it a horrendous violation, I really do doubt the person who did it ever gives it a second thought. We were terribly drunk and, after it happened, his best mate came up to me to question why I was upset as it seemed to him I was over-reacting too.

is there any other crime that anyone can think of where someone only realises thats what it was 14 years later? and i dont mean because they've repressed it, i mean they were fully (or even partially) aware of what was happening, and then decide years later that it needs to be reclassified? has anyone been beaten up and decided years later that it was assault?

i knew while i was being raped that it was rape. i knew afterward, i knew the next day, and i know now.

sunshinemummy, that is interesting to say the least.

sorry for you going thru that ordeal though.

nattie it's funny but I knew the night I was assaulted that I had been but then I completely forgot about it and about 16 years later it suddenly popped back into my head and I actually defined it for myself (I even think Mumsnet may have been the catalyst). I've never ever told anyone apart from two of the flatmates I lived with at the time (one who died 7 years ago and one who is now my DH) that night so for me to even mention it now is pretty much unheard of.

Maybe rape is different as I'm positive it is much more traumatic. I was penetrated but not by a penis.

Nattiecake, yes that is a good point. I wonder how that works? I have heard numerous stories of abuse lying dormant for years but it seems to be connected mainly with childhood abuse where the victim is young and actually cannot be sure if the rape is "normal" adult behaviour or something worse. Are there cases of people being a victim of another crime ie assault, robbery, etc. where the victim is in denial for a number of years before finally realising that they were wronged?
I am so sorry for you and for what happened to you, am so "green "when it comes to discussing issues like this and don't know what to say except I hope you are feeling as strong as you sound.

I don't usually agree with ditany - I tend to think that she adopts something of a hardline anti men stance but on this issue she is absolutely 100% right. Penetration without consent or as recent case law dictates without bothering to obtain consent or with someone who is too incapacitated to give informed consent is rape. You can sympathise with the OP or claim that the behaviour wouldn't concern you but in the eyes of the law that woman was raped.

I am appalled at the comments along the lines of "she probably murmered her consent". She was drunk- Asleep or unconcious her reflex actions cannot and do not amount to consent.

Imagine a man had broken into her house and started having sex with her but stopped once she became concious. Not rape? Don't be ridiculous.

hmm, im not sure as i've only experienced rape and not sexual assault, so i cant really comment on your situation either

but i would imagine that if you knew the person and saw them often you would have been reminded of it? so you couldnt say you knew what happened but forgot about it..? iyswim?

sunshinemummy, sorry but had posted my last rsponse before seeing yours. Did you ever go to couselling after your assault?

dawn, im fine i wont actually go into details about it as its beside the point. i dont forget for a second but i have a lovely life now and just focus on that. i guess in a way, as i was drunk (and possibly drugged?) its something that its easier to detach from than if i'd been walking home alone after dark. easier to view it as a bad dream.

but still that i know 100% happened and would not happily spend 14 years socialising with the scum

nancydrew, she may well have been very vocal and physical in her consent, she has said herself she doesnt remember?

nattie it's weird because I did literally forget about it - but I don't think I blocked it I just think it wasn't important enough to be foremost in my mind (I was going through a lot at the time as my mum had recently died, my dad had married a bitch (sorry awful word but the way she treated us means nothing else suits) and my 13 year old brother was possibly coming to live with me (an 18 year old student). I'm not trying to belittle the experience but I had so much going on.

DTD I had counselling for everything else but not for that. And actually it makes me go rather than be devesated. The night and the few weeks after it happened were awful but I genuinely did forget about it.

Nattiecake yes she may well have been, equally he may have used force, as you say she doesn't recall.

However I am struggling with a scenario where woman goes to bed alone, friends boyfriend gets into bed with her, she thinks "yeah this is exactly what I want - sex with drunk man who can barely stand who is not my partner"' is vocal in her desire for sex, then suddenly and somewhat inexplicabl desides she doesn't in fact want sex once he enters her. Sounds pretty unlikely to me.