life turned upside down

[dawntildusk]

I am really freaked out and need help putting this in perspective.
Here goes.
2 weeks ago a good friend of 25 years told me straight out that my dh (then boyfriend) raped her. It happened 14 years ago. She told me she has no recollection whatsoever of the night leading up to or immediately after the event. She woke up with him in the bed and he was inside her. She shouted at him and he left. Obviously I was shattered, devastated, nauseous, reeling from the shock. I sympathised with her, held her and hugged her and apologised over and over. When I confronted dh he was all the above multiplied by a million. His recollection of the event is this. We were all out drinking for the afternoon at a rugby match followed by the pub and then a club. 16 hours later we went to her house and he was helped to bed(by my brother and me). During the night he got out of our bed, he reckons to go to the bathroom, and climbed back in her bed. He remembers kissing and fondling, he does not deny he may have penetrated her but only "came too" after some kissing and they both realised what was happening at the same time. He left immediately, still really drunk and went back to bed.
I don't know what I am looking for by posting this but the word "rape" for me conjures up much different images than the one described to me. We have been married 12 years and have 4 beautiful children. My dh has been a kind, thoughtful, caring and supportive partner to me and I love him dearly. My friend is single, turning 40 this year and is blaming her recent breakdown on this event. I am so confused and need to know what you think. Is this rape?

Is this rape?

dawn, I really don't knw what you are going to gain by talking to your friend

you believe your husband...full stop

you cannot mediate between the two of them

just stay away...this seems like a game and a dangerous one at that

do you really think when you confront her to say "I beleive you had consensual sex with my soon-to-be-DH but that he didn't rape you" she is just going to say "ok then..."

whatever the truth of the situation of what happened back then, she is dredging it back up and no good will come of it for you

never mind protecting your husband or trying to get to the bottom of it...it will come down to his word against hers

let it go...you believe your DH, you don't need to know any more than that nor get any more involved

I assaulted someone once when I was drunk.

The police got involved but didn't press charges. I'd assaulted my friend, and in the cold light of day she didn't want to pursue it.

We have remained best friends for 12 years. She was my bridesmaid six months ago. I will be hers in eight weeks.

Now of course, having read this thread, I know that I didn't actually assault her as a) I was drunk and b) we remained friends afterwards. Thanks guys, I have been carrying a lot of guilt for years about that "assault" which just turns out to be one of thse things after all!

It's going to be her word against his depending on how far she takes this. I cannot understand why she would be making this up 14 years later, sorry.

I have been in a similar situation to this. I didn't report it at the time as I was worried about the being responsible for breaking up a relationship and/or not being believed. It can play on your mind many years later.

ISNT - you're right, my own experiences colour my view of this situation, as do many other's, especially those who can not fathom black-outs - coming to - remembering some details and not others

I wouldn't bet my life on her account being a lie but nor would I bet on his being one either

I'm just saying it is possible that she consented originally and then withdrew consent at a later stage, as she can't remember

My experience is colouring my view too. In my case he knew exactly what he was doing to which the OP's DH has now admitted.

It is quite possible to respond to someone touching you when you are half asleep/intoxicated before you realise who and what is happening. It doesn't make it consensual.

hardertokidnap- well, your story would be the same as the OP's if, in 14 yrs time, despite having appeared to let the assault go, your friend decided to bring it back up, refused to speak to you and dragged all your mutual friends (and your innocent partner) into the fray.

I am casting no aspersions here about who is right and who is wrong- I don't personally know both the OPs Dh or her friend, so I can't really make that judgement. What I am saying is that is a very harrowing situation for the OP. She is probably going to be forced to make a choice between them, as they no longer seem to agree on their story. Agree with the other poster who sid that neither of them may be lying- it is possible for 2 people to be present at an event and have a different take on what happened, especially if drink is involved.

My ex climbed into bed with his mum once.

ARf

Bloody hell.

My gut instinct here would be absolutely NOT to go and talk to her on your own. I dont think it will help anyone.

You cant get past the fact you will be telling her you think she is lying or at the very least mistaken and making a huge mistake. This is not what she wants to hear, I just cant imagine the conversation going well.

I think this friendship is over and what you need now is an indication of her intentions. Is she going to prosecute? If not what does she want to happen next so this can be resolved.

I would personally write to her- this is largely because I am often a bit rubbish about getting out what I want to say when I am put on the spot. I would keep it completely neutral - 'I'm sorry its taken so long to get in touch but its been alot to process. I am very sorry you are in such distress. When I spoke to DH his version of the story is not the same as yours. What would you like for us all to do next to start to resolve this?'

If you do go, and it sounds like you are all set to meet up- take someone with you.

Dittany: I was sitting on the couch having a drink, I 'woke up' on the couch with him having sex with me

You know what, i once let a man stay in my bed overnight, having spent the night drinking together (and taking drugs). I remember going to bed, i remember telling him that i wasn't interested in sex as i had a boyfriend. I kept a t-shirt and knickers on. I woke up kissing him, with him on top of me having sex with me... it took a few minutes for me to realise it wasn't my boyfriend and to push him off. He did not feel that he had raped me (not that we ever talked about it using that word) because he had initiated sex and i had responded... i don't remember responding, because i have no memory until i 'came to' but i can only assume i did because i was kissing him back when i did become conscious of what was happening.
I felt thoroughly violated because i had TOLD him i wasn't interested and i felt preyed upon because i was at a very low ebb and had been looking for support from him (my dad was very sick with cancer at the time, he had gone through same with his dad).
However, from his point of view he was in bed with a woman, tried it on, she didn't say no... doesn't sound like rape...
I am only sharing this story because there seems to be a belief that either you remember everything or nothing. When you drink a lot it is not necessarily like that, blackouts are not necessarily one big long gap, you may remember a couple of tiny details in hours of blackness.
OP i feel for you. It's super complicated. I really really hope you get out of it with the least pain possible for all concerned.

I totally agree with AF

I f you believe him and want to support him, then you can't speak to her about this. I don't believe you can be friends with her.

Yes jooly, that would be shit for me if that happened. However, I still assualted her all those years ago, and her behaviour during and afterwards would not negate the fact that I did it.

HarderToKidnap: You DID assault her though? by your own admission? you should have been charged? She was the victim of your violence?

OR are you saying that you do remember hitting her but you remember her hitting you too and can't remember how it started?

That would be a brawl - both at fault

Why are you comparing?

Dawntilldusk - did you go?

I hope you are OK (well, as OK as you can be given all that is going on).

I'm sorry that you have had to hear that your (now) DH was unfaithful to you - it's shite - extremely drunk or not

You are 'coping' with all of this very, very well. I personally think you are in shock and I am worried for you when that starts to wear off. At the very least I think you need to tell another friend, someone who isn't a mutual friend with this other woman. You are going to need more support than your currently pregnant mutual friend and a councellor can give you. Of course we are all here - but it's not the same as real life hugs & a shoulder to cry on.

agree with AF
steer clear

again following from what AF said...

from personal experience - i was the victim of sexual assualts and confronted the perpetrator many years later

I had NO intention of going to the police until I was accused of lying...

nothing going to wind a victim into a state of wild anger/rage/self righteous frustration than that imo

I would just stay away from friend completely - work throuhg issues with dh and counsellors

I'm sorry Dawn, I don't believe this now.
It doesn't ring true.

I think either he's lying to you, or you're lying to us.

Obviously from a legal POV, it's better for him to have been unfaithful than to have raped her.

My gut instinct tells me that you're worried about the existence of this thread and are backtracking.

I was totally of the opinion that this wasn't rape, but this change of story seems cold and calculating rather than upset and confused like before.

I've been reading everyone's posts with interest. Dawn, I'm impressed by your balanced and pragmatic approach. If everyone could manage your level of honesty when things/people go wrong, the world would be a happier place

I feel confused by the amount of black-and-white thinking on your thread, not to mention vitriol and blaming. The thing happened. You can't change that, though I'm sure everyone would if they could. You have a healthy, happy marriage which weighs more in your life than an incident, which happened before your marriage started. You have a long-standing friend going through a turbulent life crisis. I feel the only thing you can do is clarify the facts in your own mind - which you have done: props to you and DH (more you, but he spoke up so him as well!)

In the general run of events, you would never have know about it and your friend would never have been troubled by it. I have some empathy for her. Perhaps people who've never 'needed' to rewrite history can't understand it, so here's my attempt at a potted version. My childhood is a blank to me, and so are numerous things I did in the years that followed. Each time I remember something from childhood, I get another recollection of a stupid thing I did in my twenties. I didn't consciously choose to forget: it was a childhood survival mechanism that, unsurprisingly, took a while to switch off. The facts that your friend has been a bit of a boundary-pusher, and has now had a breakdown, suggest she's in a similar boat.

I don't actually think you can do any harm by talking to her yourself. The worst that can happen is that nothing will change. You're a good friend, and a wise one by the sound of it, so perhaps you'll find the right combination of resolution and gentleness to let her unburden the issue without hurting anyone. That would be the best outcome, wouldn't it?

If it all looks like going pear-shaped at an early stage, then you can always try backing off then suggesting a joint session at Relate.

From your own point of view, you've already done the hardest part (getting the whole story from DH) so the main thing, now, is to come out of this without blaming, resenting, or shouldering anybody else's issues. I believe you'll do that just fine

Hi, sympathy to the OP.

To the posters who think people "generally rally around men accused of rape", ie, this thread.

I think it's more a case of people have a gut feeling in regard to the story/ies they are hearing.

I believe once (if) it gets to a court room with the time that has lapsed and a lack of physical evidence it will be reduced to a case of "he said, she said" and a lot of fancy footwork by well paid legal help.

Then it will come down to the judge (or jury) making a decision based on their gut instincts
(due to lack of actual evidence).

How many times have you heard the expression "your first impression is usually right".

I believe BOTH OP's DH and friend are innocent til proven guilty (one party or the other) but how will / can that happen beyond reasonable doubt?

My heart goes out to those who have had the misfortune to have been raped and identify with those who have been part of the "drunken fumble" and not been traumatised by it but recognised it as a mistake.

Have just spent the past hour or so reading the majority of this thread.

Wrt whether it was/wasn't rape, tbh it's very subjective, and as much as we'd like to think differently, it's not black and white. It doesn't come down to "if she thinks it is it is and if he thinks it isn't it isn't" it does depend on the circumstances, and tbh given none of us were there we can never know what happened, and given the two people involved appear to have both been blind drunk, in reality, they can never really know what happened either. Maybe she believes she was raped and actually she just can't remember giving consent, or maybe he took a chance and she was raped, iyswim. However

I do think that if you're going to start accusing someone of rape then you should have to stand up in court and do so. I'm not talking about telling one person in confidence, but it's not on to tell all your mutual friends that x is a rapest without having the courage of your convictions to make that alagation a legal one.

Whatever the man did or didn't do, he has the right to defend himself, and a right to a fair hearing.

It's very sad for any woman if she is violated in such a way, but that does not give her the right to make the accusations without giving the man the right to a legal defence.

How did it go yesterday, dawn?

But the 'friend' sat up and took her top off. Would you do that if someone was raping you?

Agree with Wannabe. It simply isn't on for her to accuse OP's DH of rape. If the matter doesn't go to Court (which I feel is unlikely) then he won't have the opportunity to formally clear his name. Why is it ok for her to label him a rapist when he has no real way to defend himself against her allegations?

ajandjjmum: That's a bit that's well in the realm of 'he said she said', though. You weren't there and nor were any of us.
I do also agree that it is not fair for anyone to go around accusing another individual of a dreadful crime to mutual acquaintances but not allowing it to proceed to court. I appreciate that many women feel that a lot of rapists 'get away with it' (because that's not untrue) but, suppose it was your DS being accused-by-rumour? Suppose you knew your DS hadn't done it? Would you not want the due process of the law to be involved?