life turned upside down

[dawntildusk]

I am really freaked out and need help putting this in perspective.
Here goes.
2 weeks ago a good friend of 25 years told me straight out that my dh (then boyfriend) raped her. It happened 14 years ago. She told me she has no recollection whatsoever of the night leading up to or immediately after the event. She woke up with him in the bed and he was inside her. She shouted at him and he left. Obviously I was shattered, devastated, nauseous, reeling from the shock. I sympathised with her, held her and hugged her and apologised over and over. When I confronted dh he was all the above multiplied by a million. His recollection of the event is this. We were all out drinking for the afternoon at a rugby match followed by the pub and then a club. 16 hours later we went to her house and he was helped to bed(by my brother and me). During the night he got out of our bed, he reckons to go to the bathroom, and climbed back in her bed. He remembers kissing and fondling, he does not deny he may have penetrated her but only "came too" after some kissing and they both realised what was happening at the same time. He left immediately, still really drunk and went back to bed.
I don't know what I am looking for by posting this but the word "rape" for me conjures up much different images than the one described to me. We have been married 12 years and have 4 beautiful children. My dh has been a kind, thoughtful, caring and supportive partner to me and I love him dearly. My friend is single, turning 40 this year and is blaming her recent breakdown on this event. I am so confused and need to know what you think. Is this rape?

Is this rape?

Dawn, you've not said she consented, but others here have suggested as much.

Well, actually, only prh47, who seems REALLY invested in showing that this wasn't rape and the woman can't be trusted.

I would say that it was rape while you were asleep, and the fact that you gave your consent "after the fact" just means that it went from non-consensual (something he was doing to you) to consensual (something he was doing with you) when you woke up and decided to continue.

Sorry dittany, just been meaning to ask and too stupid to know how to do so any other way. Apologies to dawntildusk.

Again Dittany, you misread my meaning. I do believe her! I never said I didn't. I believe everything she told me, where did I say that I didn't? There is noone denying that it happened. I am challenging the use of the term rape to describe what happened.

I understand, dawn, why you are challenging the "rape" accusation, but I do think, unfortunately, you will make things worse if you try to go over this with her, as you are neither involved nor impartial

I think the problem is, they were both drunk, but the fact that he was drunk in no way changes what happened to her, IYSWIM. Like if you got punched in the face hard by a drunk friend (not a perfect analogy obviously but what could be really), the fact that they were drunk doesn't mean they didn't assault you, or that you weren't injured emotionally and/or physically. She was sexually assaulted, I would say raped. Agree with whoever above says this doesn't mean he is an evil man who lurks in dark alleys and shouldn't be around your kids, but under some particular circumstances, he is capable of penetrating a woman without her consent. Most people who rape aren't the dark alleys type anyway, it's a myth used to excuse the men who rape people they know.

Dittany, no my husband does not "have sex with me when I am asleep" as you put it but next time i feel like waking him up for sex I had will be sure to get his full consent before laying a finger him incase he accuses me of violating him. thanks fr the advice everyone, i am off to bed for another sleepless night.

Also, I'm not asking whether it happens, but if you do wake up with your husband "having sex" with you, you might want to think again about his behaviour in general. That's more serious than a one-off, that would be a habit of having sex with unconsenting women. Hope was just an example though.

Sorry x-post. I think whatever happens this woman needs counselling to try and understand what has happened to her, not just this incident but the whole of her recent history, if she's spent most of the time on drink and drugs.

Hope you do get some sleep dawntildusk, none of this is your fault and it's bitterly unfair that you are having to deal with the fallout.

if i was drunk and asleep and a man got into my bed i would (in my sleep) assume it was dp

remember how drunk these people were, he was in an unfamilier house and unfortunatly got it wrong

my dp initiates sex all the time while i am sleeping, to call this rape is ridiculous and lacking of all common sense and no one answered the question 'What if I wake him up by getting him aroused? is that abuse?'

fgs

wtf! are you guys serious? all the partners i have EVER had have initiated sex while i am sleeping! i actually like waking up feeling nice!

dawntildusk, I am going to bed now. Really hope you manage to get all this sorted out. as Elephants has said, none of this is your fault, try to remember that!

No-one asked 'what do you call it if someone initiates sex when asleep' if by intiate you mean put a hand on a thigh or whatever. The question answered was, if someone has sex with me when I'm asleep is that rape? And yes, that is. Sex without consent = rape. You can't consent when you're asleep.

Nothing wrong with waking someone up for sex. A lot wrong with penetrating an unconscious body.

Seriously? Touching and cuddling yeah maybe, but just going for it and penetrating you while you're still out of it - seriously?

Plus ignoring the fact that this wasn't the woman's DP, it was someone else's. If a mate you had staying got into your bed and stuck it in while you were asleep (assuming DP's absence) would you be able to laugh it off?

ok, initiate was the wrong word, i stand by what i said, i will maybe be just stirring as they 'get it in' so to say ('they' sounds terrible but i am talking about xp's also) but according to the ops friend it was 'just the tip' so he didn't actually fully penetrate her before she woke up either

no, i would not laugh it off, but i would face up to it the next day or at least before they got married and while it was fresh in everyones heads, not 14 years later accuse a friends dh of rape, i understand thats just me and she is obviously feeling differently

If there was no drink involved here, it would definitely be viewed as rape, however, the man's 'intentions' should be considered before reaching that conclusion when both were extremely intoxicated, imo

I say 'both' as although he wandered into her bed, there's nothing to suggest she didn't cuddle up to him and initiate the encounter - she was pissed too wasn't she?

I've woken up before to dp having a fondle with me, I might have thought it was a nice suprise if the fucker wasn't snoring at the time

Add drink to the equation and memories get distorted, actual events are blacked-out - I don't think either of their memories here are a reliable source to piece together exactly what happened.

Dittany, I understand your view in that, she's the woman - he penetrated without informed consent - therefor it is rape

But, it has been stated here that both were blind drunk, and that he only became aware of what was happening at the same time as she did, why then would he not be shocked and traumatised by the encounter also?

'it can take a great deal of time to process it'

• why is this statement not true for him aswell?

It's odd that someone can be "so drunk they don't know where they are or what they were doing" and at the same time sober enough to get an erection, and also to claim memories that conflict with those of the woman.

OP you are now giving a slightly different account of what your friend said than you did at the start.

Ok, obviously according to the definition of the law as it stands now your friend was raped if she did not give consent.

I too have been raped in the circumstances you describe and I have also raped someone in those circumstances. I am using the word deliberately as the word 'rape' is used for all sorts of experiences - even minor (to your husband) and not-so-minor right now to your friend.

Your friend is currently working on this in therapy so it will feel really raw to her right now. Once she has processed it she may not feel so strongly.

If I were you I would not overreact and do anything - I can hear that you have mixed feelings about what she's saying, you're upset for her and angry that she's telling people. You are not the best person to help her so i would step away for now.

I don't think there is a statute of limitations on rape but it might be good to have your husband write down now what happened - perhaps he could also get some therapy (or you both as a couple) just to talk about what happened and how you feel.