life turned upside down

[dawntildusk]

I am really freaked out and need help putting this in perspective.
Here goes.
2 weeks ago a good friend of 25 years told me straight out that my dh (then boyfriend) raped her. It happened 14 years ago. She told me she has no recollection whatsoever of the night leading up to or immediately after the event. She woke up with him in the bed and he was inside her. She shouted at him and he left. Obviously I was shattered, devastated, nauseous, reeling from the shock. I sympathised with her, held her and hugged her and apologised over and over. When I confronted dh he was all the above multiplied by a million. His recollection of the event is this. We were all out drinking for the afternoon at a rugby match followed by the pub and then a club. 16 hours later we went to her house and he was helped to bed(by my brother and me). During the night he got out of our bed, he reckons to go to the bathroom, and climbed back in her bed. He remembers kissing and fondling, he does not deny he may have penetrated her but only "came too" after some kissing and they both realised what was happening at the same time. He left immediately, still really drunk and went back to bed.
I don't know what I am looking for by posting this but the word "rape" for me conjures up much different images than the one described to me. We have been married 12 years and have 4 beautiful children. My dh has been a kind, thoughtful, caring and supportive partner to me and I love him dearly. My friend is single, turning 40 this year and is blaming her recent breakdown on this event. I am so confused and need to know what you think. Is this rape?

Is this rape?

I agree absolutely with Dittany.

Dittany: it seems to have been the case that the man got out of his own bed to have a piss while drunk, and then got into the friend's bed, which again sounds more like a mistake than a deliberate planned assault. People (male and female) do sometimes do this when drunk and sleeping in an unfamiliar house ie go the wrong way and get into the wrong bed. And sometimes people who have got into the wrong bed think that the other person in the bed with them is their usual sexual partner and therefore might begin at least to caress the other person in this mistaken belief. It is of course irresponsible to get that drunk, but it doesn't necessarily make you a rapist.

The Op has used the phrase "woke up" but says that her friend says she has no memory of events leading up to or immediately after the event. Someone with a history of drug and alcohol (ab)use is likely to have experienced blackouts. Therefore we don't know what happened immediately before she was aware that she was being penetrated. It sounds like an unfortunate incident to me but to be honest nothing more than that.

Yes, having sex with someone who is completely unconscious is rape. However, lubrication is needed if you are to achieve penetration without using force. If the woman is completely unconscious it is likely that an artificial lubricant will be needed. There is no evidence that one was used in this case.

No, drunk men do not end up inside the wrong sleeping women all the time. However, drunk women do consent to have sex whilst drunk and are then unable to recall that when sober.

As I say, the woman in this case will feel violated and will feel she was raped. However, it is only rape if the man either knows that she doesn't consent or doesn't care whether or not she consents. That is the law. In this case, the fact that he withdrew as soon as it was clear she did not consent suggests that he did care whether or not she consented and believed, rightly or wrongly, that she had consented.

She doesn't know if she went to bed on her own though does she. BTW I regret using the phrase an unfortunate incident as reconsidering I can see how it would be traumatic for someone to suddenly remember this out of the blue.

Dittany- I really wasn't trying to "redefine" this woman's experience- none of us here even have a clue what that experience actually was! we have two versions of it, from two people who were under the influence of alcohol and have hazy, and different, memories of the event! I don't need closure on my own experience- it really wasn't a big deal to me (and by that I am NOT trying to say that it shouldn't be a big deal for the OP's friend!). I only shared my experience as an example of how things could maybe be resolved without unnecessary angst to all concerned.

I think the danger we are in is of putting decent guys who have made a drunken error in the same box as misogynistic gits who don't care whether a woman says yes or no. "Rape" is a very strong word, with connotations of fear and violence, and the more it is bandied about in any old situation, the more diluted its meaning becomes, which I don't think is a good thing, tbh.

Dittany - You may not think that what goes on in a man's head makes a difference. However, the law thinks it does. If the man genuinely (albeit mistakenly) believes the woman has consented it is not rape. However, it won't help the man to say he thought she consented if his alleged belief is clearly not credible, e.g. he dragged her into an alley and raped her at knifepoint.

The lubrication comment is utterly false. And often used against rape victims to prove some sort of nebulous consent.

If the husband is telling the truth, he appeared, swaying drunk, in the wrong woman's bedroom. Those of you who are hypothesising that she consented and doesn't remember, are you honestly thinking she wakes up, sees her friend's pissed husband climbing into bed with her, indicates to him that she's up for some sex, and then wakes up properly and withdraws that consent?

It seems awfully unlikely to me.

Dittany, I don't think he was "banking" on anything that night as that would suggest he concsiously set out to do this. I see it as a stupid, drunken mistake where he was wandering around in the night to go to the jacks and ended up in the same bed as my friend accidently and was not even aware that it was not me he was with. If he were to have sex with me when I was asleep is that still rape?

What a horrible situation for everyone involved, and it does sound like she has focussed on this one thing as the root of all her problems. BUT I agree with dittany more than anyone. Yes SGB getting into the "wrong" bed does happen, but it's a far cry from there to getting an erection, perhaps undressing a woman and penetrating her. If it was a man would he have accidentally slipped it in? I feel pretty damn sure that he wouldn't.

And to everyone saying she gave consent while she was asleep - actually for my own sanity I cling to the belief that we are not just walking talking dick receptacles available to whatever man is feeling frisky at the time. Just because a woman is asleep or unconscious and can't move or react, she is not tacitly giving consent, any more than if I walked in and put a ring on your ringer while you slept we would be married.

OP I am sorry for you, and sorry for your children if this does become public. But if your husband got drunk and beat someone up or knocked someone over in his car he would be held responsible, it's the same in this case.

Comfort yourself though, the police won't take her seriously and if she'll more than likely be added to the long list of women whose rapes remain unreported or ignored.

"Lubrication is needed..." - I base that claim on basic biology. If there is no lubrication, either natural or artificial, penetration will be painful and will require greater force than if lubrication is present. The whole point of lubrication is to make penetration easy and painless.

Bollocks PRH, a vagina can actually be dry even if you're quite (mentally) aroused, and sometimes wet for no obvious reason at all. In any case, she was asleep or otherwise out for the count, but it's nice of you to accord her vagina person status and apparently a power to consent that trumps that of her actual mind.

Where have I said "it can't be rape" ??? I haven't said, in fact, whether I thought it was rape or not- because I don't have all the facts, and I am not judge and jury

You're confusing my story ( which I said was "similar" not the same) and which I only shared in case my solution could be of any help to the Op and her DH and the friend (ie discussing it like adults to try to reach some sort of closure) with me trying to say that the OP's friend had the same experiece as I did, which she obviously didn't!!

I'm only trying to see a path forward here- what would you have her do, dittany- go to the police?

I don't think I ever suggested that she consented to having sex did I? My husbands recolletion is only of some kissing and then they both became aware of what was happening after which he left which means that any penetration, if there was any, happened BEFORE the kissing. My friend recollects penetration was for 2 seconds or so and "only the tip" as she put it. I do not feel that that act justifies being called rape. I do, however, acknowledge that she feels violated but agree with some of your posts advising that I should talk to her and help her piece the evenings events together which may make it easier on her rather than leave her with no memory of it at all.

"A woman's physiological response to sexual contact is involuntary. In rare cases, women can become physically aroused, produce natural lubrication, and even experience orgasms against their will during rape. However, this is very uncommon and in no way implies consent." Roy J. Levin; Willy van Berlo (2004-04). "Sexual arousal and orgasm in subjects who experience forced or non-consensual sexual stimulation ? a review". Journal of Clinical Forensic Medicine (elsevier.com) 11 (2): 82?88. linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1353113103001536. Retrieved 2008-06-08

A basic google will give you as many sources as you could desire to back up the above.

dawntilldusk, I really do feel for you, here. I certainly don't think that, even though I do consider this rape, it automatically brands your husband as an evil person who isn't fit to be a father.

But yes, if you are asleep and he has sex with you, it's rape. You can't consent when you're asleep. You're unconscious, you're not responding, you're not consenting. It's rape.

dawntildusk- I'm not sure that you are the best person to talk to your friend on this . I know she is your friend, and that she came to you, but you weren't there, and in reality this has nothing to do with you- you are not guilty of anything here, but your friend may think you are only trying to defend your Dh, and that you will try to change her mind, or play down her experience, and that might actually upset her more. Could she not be persuaded to talk rationally to your DH, or, failing that a mutual friend (since there seem to be a few already privy to the story)?

I honestly think she might doubt your motives (not that I do, btw) and that you will be getting yourself more embroiled than is necessary.

Dittany, I am presuming that you have some experience of this or at least some third hand knowledge so can you answer this for me If my husband and I were asleep and he woke up and started to make love to me while I was asleep and I woke up and we continued on with our love making, is that rape? What if I wake him up by getting him aroused? is that abuse?